The passing on of a classic and awesome mod..

Discussion for the original Quake 2 Chaos. (DM & CTF)
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Epoch{Moo}
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:14 am

The passing on of a classic and awesome mod..

Post by Epoch{Moo} »

To the Chaos developing team and to all of the chaos players:

This message is in response to rflagg’s current post
(rflagg quote removed) - ep

Recently I have done a lot of fragging on q2chaos and have gotten q2chaos up and running on my own server as well. I’ve also spent a lot of time helping Mr.G in his efforts to improve and work on the current .dll/.so (I say .so because Mr.G has spents lots of time with me improving the .so and getting it up and running on my linux server. Through testing I have found that there are VERY much needed fixes and improvements that Mr.G has done a awesome job with in his new updates. I know that there are many players including myself who are very thankful for Mr. G to come along and make such updates…. Of which some important updates have been to prevent certain bots/cheats that without Mr.G would never of been able to be prevented. For this we thank Mr.G for his time, efforts and seriousness in this important matter for all of us that still play q2chaos.
I do understand that the chaos developing team has moved on and in doing so has left q2chaos behind…. Not in anyway do I look down upon these highly respected individuals such as yourself Rflagg, but I praise you guys for the efforts and the time that you have made with chaos and to create such a fun fragging atmosphere for us all… but there comes a time when everyone moves on.. the whole “in with the new out with the old” .. but that does not mean that some of us don’t still enjoy coming back and playing this great classic game q2chaos.. and for that instance there are some of us like myself who don’t favor the new games like ut, q3 and etc and would prefer to stick around with q2 because of how we enjoy the game play and continue to have tons of fun playing it. I understand that everyone has their own taste and flavor so I can not speak for all when I say that.. some of you might very much so enjoy UT or Q3.. it’s just that I don’t care for it and prefer q2. But at the same time I say great job with the work and progress that you have made in UT and new advancements/games.
The reason for my post comes from the following concern……
It is has been made clear that the current chaos developers no longer have the time or interest in q2chaos and the “old” game.. and are focused on the “new” chaos. Thumbs up, GJ guys… but let’s not throw away the “old” into the trash, but hand it down to the folks who still love and care for the game. Rflagg: I know you have stated that you are looking for someone else to update the q2chaos site .. such as I have provided Screen shots for.. and you would like to hand it over to someone else who can update and give it some loving… in this respect… why don’t you guys hand over q2chaos including the Website (which rflagg has already stated he wanted to do) as well as the .dll/.so etc. etc. to someone who is still willing to give it the luving and care that all of us q2chaos fans think it deserves. I also play q2gloom and a long time ago the makers of gloom (team reaction) did that very same thing. They passed it onto a very trusted and respected individual names r1ch and gave him full control over the mod as they focused on “new” horizons. R1ch has done an excellent job with gloom updating the site, dll, .so (he compiled a special .so for my previous server because it would no longer run and has helped me an individual of q2gloom in many ways.. such as he has done to the whole gloom community) R1ch has made much needed updates as far as bugs, protection and several other factors.. R1ch has also added upon request many fun factors into gloom in which we have all enjoyed tremendously…..gloom would not still be pumping if it were not for him.. I’m very thankful that Team Reaction did hand it over to him and not just leave it as a stray dog. In this regard I say let’s turn over q2chaos to Mr.G and let him do updates on both the website and the mod itself and let the “Chaos team” go on to new horizons and not have to worry about q2chaos…. I highly respect Mr.G and all of his efforts.. including individual help that he has done for me. Why not put q2chaos in the hands of someone who is willing to put time and loving into this “old Classic mod” that many of us still enjoy tremendously and would not like to see it become lost. I have talked to Mr. G about this and I’m pretty sure he would not only be up for it but cares about being involved with it… and of course Mr.G would not do it on his own, but the community of us who still play q2chaos would be willing to aid him and provide any assistance and support that he wants because we too still care about this mod.
If the Chaos team would agree to this then I could see wonderful growth and support still emerge and come from q2chaos.. but if it is not passed on to someone who will take care of it .. since you guys are busy and focused on your new, exciting progress and development… it will be sadly thrown in the dumpster…. As the highly respected developers of this great game I ask you to pass q2chaos onto the Community that still cares and allows us (Mr.G) see fit to taking care of it since we are the ones that continue to spend time, efforts, money (in my case since I have a q2chaos server) and still have a blast playing it. Why not pass it on and give Mr.G control… I only see fantastic growth and improvement to come from doing so.. as once active players of such a great mod that people like myself are still active and caring of.. you (as in the players who have moved on to newer games) of all people should understand my concern and request …. And should feel respect in honoring the fans and q2chaos by keeping it alive.. who knows it could even spark fuel and fire for more future growth of chaos as new progress and new servers (such as mine) will bring in new people and new ideas.

So what do you say… LONG LIVE CHAOS!… lets promote growth, strength, involvement, activity in this community of chaotic fun by passing it on to those who will give it the loving it deserves and needs rather then letting it die out by not doing so.

Yours in Fun Fragging Always
Ashaman de la {Moo}
Epoch{Moo}
Last edited by Epoch{Moo} on Wed Feb 11, 2004 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
R.Flagg
Chaotic Dreams Team
Posts: 8460
Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 2:55 pm

Re: The passing on of a classic and awesome mod..

Post by R.Flagg »

Well, 1st off let me say that the quote of mine you have placed here, was posted in the 'members only' section (actually even deeper, in the Admin section) of the Moo Clan BB. It's unfortunate that such posts would then make their way to this board. Duly Noted.

Secondly, I think you have the wrong take on this. The Chaos team does in fact support what he is doing, and the code was released so that somebody like him can do exactly what he is doing. We have even advertised it for him on our web site, and have directed folks to give him feedback with a link directly to the thread.
Through testing I have found that there are VERY much needed fixes and improvements that Mr.G has done a awesome job with in his new updates. I know that there are many players including myself who are very thankful for Mr. G to come along and make such updates….
Through testing You have found? Well Sir, that's not surprsing, but you are a few years behind the Chaos Team, and most of the Q2Chaos vets. We have been aware for a very long time that updates could be done, and I (we) have stated as much in threads about that topic here on this forum.

I also think MrG is quite good, and I also am thankful he is doing it, I think most of the team would be. What he is doing is keeping things active, letting players get some old bugs fixed, and even a new twist on an old mod. This is great stuff, and we have never said otherwise. It's why the code was released in the 1st place.
Of which some important updates have been to prevent certain bots/cheats that without Mr.G would never of been able to be prevented. For this we thank Mr.G for his time, efforts and seriousness in this important matter for all of us that still play q2chaos
As I mentioned in the Moo BB, the best bot protection is usually written seperate from any mod, and that's the way it ought to be dealt with. I'm not an expert on anti-cheat stuff, but we usually leave that to other programs, and just run them on our servers.
I do understand that the chaos developing team has moved on and in doing so has left q2chaos behind…. Not in anyway do I look down upon these highly respected individuals such as yourself Rflagg, but I praise you guys for the efforts and the time that you have made with chaos and to create such a fun fragging atmosphere for us all…
Just for those who are now reading my original post, and this discussion, let me again state that besides Spa, this is not the same team that made Q2Chaos, and nobody here is trying to take credit for the incredible job those original members did.
It is has been made clear that the current chaos developers no longer have the time or interest in q2chaos and the “old” game.. and are focused on the “new” chaos. Thumbs up, GJ guys… but let’s not throw away the “old” into the trash
Ahhh..., but there is a rather large misunderstanding right there. I do not believe we are in anyway throwing the old Q2Chaos in the trash!!! Good heavens, what do you mean by that?! While I have tried to make clear again and again I was not even on the team then, I am now, and I see that Q2 version as a rather large, shining trophe on the mantle. It was placed there by those before me, and it's something I look up to. It is a big part of what drives me, in hopes that the team we have assembled now can achieve the same level of kickin-mod-makin' those guys did back then. (and I think we're doing a darn good job too, btw)

What I also try to do in my position now, is to protect the efforts of all those who labor here. Both now, and in the past. And I have been given the blessing of Mr. Spa to do so. OF COURSE that does not mean he will agree with everything I ever say or do, and I of course bow to him when decisions are made concerning what I still view as his property.

But at least I will put a stop on certain things before they go too far, and if Mr. Jb, or Mr. Spa, want to come in and take a look at things, even change decisions I have made, then still I have done my job.

The reason I went ahead with that post, was because I am full aware of the limited time Mr. Spa can donate to Chaos right now, and I see every day how busy Mr. Jb is on our current version. Given those facts, and the unbelievable success of the mod in it's current form, I felt comfortable in making the call. (I did run it past some members in IRC though, just fyi, and there were no objections to my decision)

But again, part of that job, is to see that stuff doesn't get released with 'our' name on it, that hasn't passed through the gauntlet of team approval. And trust me, that's not easy.

That is why I made that post. We initially were expecting someone to fix some bugs, and present that to us. However, this goes way beyond that, and I did not want the rest of this team stopping what we are doing, to go back and debate changes to Mother Chaos. Partly because we don't have time for that, and partly because it's one of the greatest mods ever made, if not the single greatest, and it does not need changes. Bug fixes, Ok, fine. But Q2Chaos itself, is just fine as it is, thank you very much.
but hand it down to the folks who still love and care for the game
Again, with respect Sir..., a rather large misunderstanding. We do in fact love and care for the Q2 version of this mod. I refer to it constantly as "Mother Chaos". Just because we are not actively developing it now, does not mean we, as a team, aren't damn proud of it, and aren't extremely happy to have it there 'on our mantle'.
Rflagg: I know you have stated that you are looking for someone else to update the q2chaos site .. such as I have provided Screen shots for.. and you would like to hand it over to someone else who can update and give it some loving… in this respect… why don’t you guys hand over q2chaos including the Website (which rflagg has already stated he wanted to do) as well as the .dll/.so etc. etc. to someone who is still willing to give it the luving and care that all of us q2chaos fans think it deserves.
Good Sir, we are not about to be handing over the Q2 version, or any version, of our mod and/or web site, to any one person. Even someone as highly respected as MrG. This is not about him, you, or me. It's about us holding on to our mod, and all of it's pieces and parts. It's an amazing thing that Chaos 'the mod' is still alive, even though it's not the same team as was in Q2. We are quite proud that fact, and we're not letting go.

Yes, I have been looking for someone to update the web site, and I have even considered seeing if the team would allow me to ask a trusted friend to do it, outside of our team. (I think I even mentioned this in our IRC channel already) But even if such a thing were to be done, it would be to keep the site active, a place for various Chaos news and related stuff to be shared. But the intention was never for the mod itself to be 'officially' changed (beyond team approved bug fixes). Just news and pics and updates to the site, and so on.

What would be a much more reasonable proposition, is for someone who has that much interest in working on Chaos, to approach the team about becoming a member. We work as a team, and we try to do the best we can to see that what is put out there with the Chaos name on it, represents what this group wanted. This cannot be done by one person, and we have a system in place to ensure it is Not done by one person.

Therefore nobody is going to be given 'free reign', to change the original, classic Chaos, w/o working thru, and with, the Team, on each and every change that takes place. This is how we work.

And besides all that, while we as a team welcome bug fixes to the mod, I myself happen to love the mod as it is, and do not agree at all with some changes that have taken place. IMO, they are not needed, nor are they improvements. And that is NOT a slam on MrG, so don't try to twist my words anyone. Some folks like chocolate, and some like vanilla. There is nothing wrong with him liking some things, and me liking another.

But again, before something like that is going to become 'the new Q2Chaos', it has to go thru the wringer. It has to go thru us, and we may not all agree with what's been done. I know I don't.

However, I know for a fact we also do not have the manpower or time right now to debate those kinds of changes. It would be much more reasonable to take some time to look at code changes for bug fixes, and then play test them. But at this point in time, and maybe never, I don't see this team going back and reworking the weapons and features of that mod.

Besides, it is after all, still being played after all this time. Something was obviosly done right. And why now, after being so succesful for so long, you feel that changes must be made, or it's "in the trash", is beyond me. Obviously it's doing well.

And there is another point here...., what's wrong with it having a name besides 1.15? There isn't. And we have every intention of supporting stuff like that. We'll pimp it, we'll probably even provide a mirror and so forth, but why must you insist we 'stamp' it? It can still be played, by everyone who agrees with, and likes, the changes that have been made.

This is quite common, I just read a thread about it over in the Infiltration forums actually. Many folks make sort of a 'mod of a mod', but they don't all expect their work to become part of the mod. They are released as add-on packs, or mutators, or whatever, and everybody who wants to can add it to their game. How is that a problem?
In this regard I say let’s turn over q2chaos to Mr.G and let him do updates on both the website and the mod itself and let the “Chaos team” go on to new horizons and not have to worry about q2chaos…. I highly respect Mr.G and all of his efforts..
I say again, I have nothing but respect for MrG, I hope folks don't misread your posts, thinking you are implying something diferrent. I not only respect him, but I like him. I tried to get him to join our clan. (still wish you would MrG :wink: )

But thank you very much, we like having a 'franchise' of a mod, and we are going to hold on to the whole thing.
and of course Mr.G would not do it on his own, but the community of us who still play q2chaos would be willing to aid him and provide any assistance and support that he wants because we too still care about this mod.
Well, this almost sounds like you feel 'the community' won't support the Chaos team, and it's mod, otherwise. That's unfortunate, and I certainly hope it isn't true. We have asked for coders to come in who might be interested, I personaly have taken time to regain access and so forth, so that the web site could once again be updated, I'm taking the time to reply to this post, and so on. What would be nice is if the 'community' that you speak for, worked with the team, to accomplish goals we share, w/o asking us to give away our mod to do so, "or else".
but if it is not passed on to someone who will take care of it .. since you guys are busy and focused on your new, exciting progress and development… it will be sadly thrown in the dumpster….
Well, it's too bad you've taken that attitude, but to each his own. You would not be the 1st to move on from Q2Chaos, and probably not the last. But speak for yourself Sir. We have no intention of throwing any of our past works "in the dumpster". If you choose to quit playing, well I'm sincerely sorry, but I don't think you're really looking at this from all sides.
So what do you say… LONG LIVE CHAOS!…
That's exactly what I say, and I've been saying it a very long time.

lets promote growth, strength, involvement, activity in this community of chaotic fun by passing it on to those who will give it the loving it deserves and needs rather then letting it die out by not doing so.
So, you are saying the only way to promote growth of this mod, is by passing it on? That's the only way you can support it, Epoch?

Let me make this clear, if I can;
Epoch{Moo} wrote: but let’s not throw away the “old” into the trash
Epoch{Moo} wrote: but if it is not passed on to someone who will take care of it .. since you guys are busy and focused on your new, exciting progress and development… it will be sadly thrown in the dumpster….
Epoch{Moo} wrote: it could even spark .... new servers (such as mine)
I must say, if you too love the mod as you say, then this seems a puzzling approach. Basicaly if we don't give away control of the mod, and it's web site, then you won't have a Chaos server, and are going to throw our mod "in the dumpster"?

Well, let me tell you something, fellow Moo. When I saw that the Chaos mod team needed help, and support from it's fans, that's what I did. I gave them help (whatever little trivial, insignificant help it might have been - or how much of it went seemingly unnoticed or unmentioned publicly- it did not matter, I just helped) and support. Not ultimatums. I did not demand they give the mod over to my friends or I'll "throw it in the trash".

Nope. That's not the approach I took at all. And that's not the approach other current team members, who also started as fans, took either. No, what we did was lend a hand anyway we could, and supported the team (and accepted the fact that the 'team' is really just a bunch of guys doing the best they can - together). And then as team members, we can try to sway the team to covering areas we think need covered.

Sounding kinda preachy maybe, but geez. Rather than say 'do this or I'm out', if you are a fan of the mod as you say, why not try another approach? It might make more headway. "Do this or I'm out", does not usually tend to go over well within the confines of our happy, cozy little team environment.

Besides, I think you're making much too big a deal about this. There is nothing being debated here but the name you, no..he, gives the file. All I said was that we're not interested in actually changing Q2Chaos, the mod itself. (and we never said we were either, btw). It's a great mod, even to this day. You even called it classic. (which is then confusing - considering your demands)

Anyone is free to make changes to it (ie: not just MrG) , give their 'version' a name (Epochs All-Night Dance Party Chaos - The Extened Mix). and enjoy life. Go for it, We are not trying to stop that in any way. We'd be very happy about it actually. And others may come along and do just that. Then we'd have another person asking the same thing. (although I am fully aware that MrG did not make this post, I'm just making a point)

I think you are making it out to sound as if we're trying to stop this from happening somehow, and we are not. Modify it, play it, have fun. But it's quite another story to ask us to give the mod, and it's name, to you.

Especially if it's essentially;

"do this, or I throw it in the dumpster".

I imagine the team will be swayed much more by someone who says, in effect;

"Hay, this would be a Great Idea!!! And if you guys don't agree, or don't get around to it today, well...that's Ok, 'cause I'll be around! :D See ya on the servers!"

Shame you didn't see it that way, Sir.

And FurrySound(Moo), while looking for a php relic to powerup this BB, see if you can get one to search and find longest posts. Cause I think I got a winner here.

Moo
Long Live Chaos
Chaos & Moo; it's a good thing
FurrySound
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Post by FurrySound »

Sorry, RFlagg, you are short by 2 characters. Better luck next time. 8O

Well put RFlagg. MrG has done a fantastic job. It's great to see the community making updates and still enjoying q2Chaos. As you said, there is a line between bug fixes and changes to gameplay/weapons/etc, somethings can be viewed as a Chaos patch/bugfix, and others as MrG has done, are addons to Chaos.
FurrySound{TOC}
-The sun never sets on the Chaotic Dreams Empire
Epoch{Moo}
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:14 am

Post by Epoch{Moo} »

First off, thank you for taking the time and effort to respond to my post in the manner that you did.. it was very well worded and thougthful...

After submitting my post I knew that it would be touchy and that I would be having to make another post most certainly in response to what was going to be said

I would like to appologize for posting in your quote in the public section because you had meant it for being conveyed privately and to that respect I had removed you quote as soon as I saw you responded as so.. the main reason I even posted it on this public forum is because I feel that this is in important matter that would affect everyone that plays q2chaos and I thought it would be brought out into the light where people who are still playing q2chaos could comment and give their incite rather then just a selective few.

My taking on your original post was that you wanted to make it clear that updates from Mr.G would not be affliated with the chaos team and would not be set as a new chaos version or anything such in that manner. 'My' thinking was hey.. you guys are obvously doing a great job with working on the new chaos and are currently too focused on that to worry about or contribute to anything that is still happing in q2chaos. Therefore my conclusion with the observation method that was done in q2gloom I thought it would be a great idea to pass it on to another "group" or individual to allow for q2chaos to still grow on a public basis.

I do apologize for my wording of "throwing in away in the trash" and things to that matter.. because I know that you guys take pride in the work that has already been done and put it up high on a the mantel piece such as what you have said :D and in no way do I want to convey the msg of belittling people that I highly respect and apprieciate. But HEY guys let's take ancient awesome chest of work down from the mantal and allow more of the chaos family to contribute go through old treasures.. make new treasures and continue to add on to this majestic chest that we call "q2chaos" that was and is the intent of my posting.. i used harsh words to convey a sense that by not doing so it would just be collecting dust .. so I would like to keep that chest shiny and clean if possible.

However I know that you guys are very proud of the great work that had been done.. and from what I perceive from your post that you just want to leave it how it was. Though I acknowledge the fact that you have made efforts such as posting on the website the new growth and development that has come about. I do know that you would like to pass that on to someone else.. so in efforts to reknew and invigorate my thinking how about handing it over to someone else who is willing to make updates, keep things nice and shiny... Instead of so as taking down your prize on the mantel but how about putting other prizes up right next to it such as instead of calling mr.G's new (final version when it's one) v1.15 let's find a new name for it such as Mr.G's updated Chaos (insert name) (insert date).. with a readme of course .. etc ..etc and so that the new people in control of the website can contribute updates, versions and anything else for that matter that the current q2chaos community would like to contribute or develop. I'm sure that you would love to continue to do so, but that you have limited time and what time you have is focused on the new development of chaos... so how about passing that on to someone who is still around and active in the q2chaos community and is willing to contribute to the chest and put more prizes up on that mantel place right beside the orginal one that was developed.
I just know that it would be nice not to put the chest up in the atic if at all possible and I see no reason why more cannot be done to continue on the fun fragging in q2chaos and in that respect I believe that it needs to be continued and added onto what is already there (the q2chaos site). I'm willling to contribute what I can inorder to see it so and I'm sure there are many others as well that would support this initiative. So how about handing down access and the ablitiy to contribute with guidelines, restrictions, rules, and anything else that you see fit to a group.... Perhaps the forming of round table with the current q2chaos contributers/players/supporters with perhaps Mr.G at it's head..who are willing to uphold your wishes and contribute to what is already there. Once that is done then you can keep focused on your future development with the relief of no longer having to check up on q2chaos because it has been put into other trusted hands that will continue to contribute to its legacy.
Any harsh or negative words that you feel I have conveyed or said then I apologize... It would be sad to see the chest locked up and the key thrown away... no not thrown away.. because I understand that that key is presious to you and the chaos developing team.. but perhaps for better wording "lost" or "hid away" or "the key inself being locked away (even though it migth still be praised on that mantel).

Again I respect everything that you have said.... I understand your view point and I appreciate the contructive feedback and apoligize for anything that I have said that has been seen as negative against you or the team. I praise you guys and support what you are doing.. not only that but I will respect and understand your wishes on what you would like to see done.

{edit} someone else made a very vaild point that should be reconized as well .. again rflagg if you would prefer to move this back to a private section then by all means (edit/delete, copy/paste) if you feel you would like do to so....
too successful, to merit any such changes
two very much needed add on and changes have been 1. non-kickable weapons and 2. bulit in cheat protection

and as they also stated... I'm a big fan of gloom and I tell you one things r1ch has truely spoiled me with it's great admin system, built in to the mod instelf.. it's truly beyond any other mod out there with tons of useful admin tools and administration that would really blow your mind to the extent of the usefullness, importantness.. and many other nesses.. after setting up and learning about chaos admin support I was really upset that it didn't have anything really at all but thrid party stuff that is no longer up to date anymore and it just reinforced my thankfullness to for r1ch and all the many others developers of gloom.. so in that respect q2chaos is far from perfect. :wink:
With that regard I might see about adding this gloom admin code into chaos... with Mr.G of course.. then your talking 8O

Yours in Fun Fragging
Ashaman de la {Moo}
Epoch{Moo}
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