Would like to balance the game.

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Azarael
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Would like to balance the game.

Post by Azarael »

To be brief, I'm interested in balancing the ChaosUT2 guns/melee weapons and potentially making some gameplay modifications to Chaos Duel. The guns are seriously underpowered relative to stock weaponry and the melee weapon tier list is pretty much Bastard Sword > * > Katana. Please let me know if this is a possibility.
Dr.Flay
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Re: Would like to balance the game.

Post by Dr.Flay »

Not sure about under-powered. It all depends on how you use them (as always).
Same for the melee weapons.
I used to favour the Katana and the battle-axe, until I got the hang of the daggers.
Now I find my most powerful and accurate weapon is heavy-stance with the daggers.

Have you tried Chaos with the RPG mod ?
You can have magic weapons to change the balance.
Mixing a relic with a magic weapon can make you super-powered for a while.
http://www.disastrousconsequences.com

If you are looking to do more with the melee weapons, I would suggest something similar to Runestorm JunkWars.
If those items were combined with Chaos, we could easily have splash-damage and breakable items.
eg. with Junkwars (Ballistic Weapons) you can use a florescent tube like a sword, and blind someone by getting a head-shot. You are then left with a broken stump that you can use like a dagger.
In either condition they have splash-damage if you throw them.
http://www.runestorm.com/ballistic
http://www.moddb.com/mods/ballistic-weapons
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Azarael
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Re: Would like to balance the game.

Post by Azarael »

Thank you for your input :) However I must note that I've been playing this mod for years - used to be in The Generals back when that was alive. I've recently started up a mod server in our server community, but nobody wants to play with the Chaos guns because you get trashed by stock weaponry.

To elaborate more on Duel, the Sword has the best animations and 25 base damage on heavy. I think no weapon in the game naturally 3 shots on heavy and a lot of them have worse animations. Additionally the formulaic stance damage (light damage + 5 for every level above) cripples the lower stances, with the most tragic case being staff light which deals 8 damage. Given that it is easier to hit in Duel with a slower animation than a faster one, this is pretty backwards both in gameplay and in science.

I'm the creator of the BallisticPro mod to balance, fix and improve the gameplay of Ballistic Weapons. So far we have 2 servers running that mod and they generally run at or close to capacity (22 and 15) during European prime time. I want to see if a similar revival is possible for Chaos.
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Re: Would like to balance the game.

Post by Dr.Flay »

Hehe. Well I guess I'm preaching to the converted.
Hopefully the devs/admin will respond soon with some help.
There have been recent CUT updates, so I hope your enquiry brings results.
The only addon Chaos melee weapon I've found is a baseball-bat :(

The Chaos fans are a bit spread-out, and many are not aware of the current Chaos site.
Hermskii (a regular here) runs Chaos servers.
http://hermskii.com/Forum/viewforum.php?f=24

The RPG guys have chatted in the past about Chaos and JunkWars RPG, as melee is more important for them.
You'd also get a good gauge of melee needs and balance there.
http://www.disastrousconsequences.com/d ... /4467.page

For me I found the Chaos melee weapons I choose are often based on the terrain I'm fighting in.
My ability to remember (or execute) the special-moves with the various blades also biases what I feel is most deadly.
I was good for a while at doing what I called the Sonic the Hedgehog move with the katana.
Leap of something with forward momentum and crouch in the air.
Turning into a spinning ball of death usually gained me multiple hits on several enemy, and guarantee at least 1 kill.

As I play so little, my moves have reduced and I favour the daggers for the reason I can defend myself better with this than any other, whilst also attacking quickly.
It is also the most accurate to aim.
I can block most sword strikes, so it doesn't matter how much damage it has.
Changing your style of fighting depending on your weapon, makes such a big deal with Chaos compared to normal beat-em-ups. We don't have the option of button-bashing.

I doubt the Chaos weapons were balanced against the standard ones, as the idea is the mut replaces everything.
Mappers should balance the weapons manually when using a mix, but I take your point.

Sometimes it goes the other way though. eg. Nali Weapons 3.
It would be pointless mixing standard weapons, as the NW3 mod makes UT guns look like pea-shooters.

This reminds me of the NW3 pickups though. Hmmm. *THINKS*

How about Chaos weapon pickups?
Could work for both projectile and melee (same as NW3).
Robbing a little of the ideas like Relics and RPG.

All melee weapons are always pickup-able, same as guns.
Pickup a weapon you already have and it's damage or speed is increased.
This could be an inherent weapon property, or based on the relic you are holding.
Weapons could hold their strength and speed when dropped (like the magic in the RPG and MH pickups in NW3).
A pickup system may be a way of making them more desirable.

Normal relics are "people" relics. They change everything.
Weapon relics could just be limited to Chaos sub-classes?
You should also be able to combine the 2.

With NW3 for example I can combine weapon speed and relic damage with the dual-blades, and turn into in instant meat-grinder.
I often play with swarm-zombies wandering around, so it is very useful to save ammo.

If you are not familiar with NW3, try it out and add the MonsterHunt pickups.
It is fluid and does not break game-play (you don't have to stop or access a menu).
The 4 categories are; Strength, Speed, Splash-damage and knock-back.
Some lucky weapons randomly get 3 slots, so you can then mix the pickups. This becomes a very desirable weapon.
http://my.opera.com/Unreal-Tournament/b ... -weapons-3

If you could implement a similar mutator, it should work well with all maps, and with both melee and projectile.

Anyway, you may also want to bare in mind the next Chaos, where your work with the Ballistics mod may also be useful. An ideas thread started in it's section.
http://www.forums.chaoticdreams.org/vie ... =40&t=6537
Runestorm's mod is a big inspiration for the direction I feel Chaos should take, so I am very glad to see you here.
Expect more ramblings from me. I often "think out-loud" in these developer forums :mrgreen:
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Azarael
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Re: Would like to balance the game.

Post by Azarael »

Eagerly anticipating a response from the UT2004 team.
Azarael
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Re: Would like to balance the game.

Post by Azarael »

Thanks to the team for their permission. Currently in the process of balancing the melee weapons and guns.

Changes are on ut2004://37.59.16.144:9950, our multimod server with Chaos Duel, CTDM and CDM votable among other gametypes, if anyone's interested. I see the topic's had a few more views.
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Re: Would like to balance the game.

Post by Dr.Flay »

Cool man.
Glad you got a response.

I'll make a posting at Hook's and Hermskii's places, as they both have Chaos sections.
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Hermskii
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Re: Would like to balance the game.

Post by Hermskii »

Who answered? Who is the 2004 team? I'm very excited at new attempts to do ANYTHING with CHAOS. I have to get my Chaos section on my forum built up pronto and I'm pleased to say that with my new better paying job and the kids getting older where they can find their own fun I will have more time to mingle in the UT things again.

Azarael, I am familiar with your name I think but not your work. I never really went into UT2004 too far since I still preferred UT to it so much as most others did. I do like UT2004 though and my UT2004-Chaos sever does farly well compared to my other 4 servers. Improvements are welcome. you effort is appreciated.

I have to ask anyways though you already answered I think. Do you look at UT and the original Choas and want to make any changes there too?

Chaos was the first time I saw different weapons for UT. It blew my mind the first time I got it to work. All improvements to CHOAS mods are welcome! Thank you!
~Peace~

Hermskii
www.hermskii.com/forum
Azarael
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Re: Would like to balance the game.

Post by Azarael »

Hi. I made the request via the IRC channel and received permission to modify Chaos within the common-sense framework of 1) non-profit and 2) not taking credit for any Chaotic Dreams work.

You may well be familiar with my name, I believe I posted once on a topic you started and I played Chaos back in the day with the Generals clan.

I have a strong preference for UT2004 and it's where most of my experience lies. I haven't played UT99 online for quite a while, although I seem to recall Chaos weapons felt better in terms of power in '99 than they did in 2004.

My agenda for Chaos is simple: To get some power into the Chaos guns, to fix a few bugs (the MUG aircontrol bug and freeze crash being two of them) to improve the balance and gameplay of Duel and to modify a few things within the game for better flow. It's actually surprised me how much I've had to buff certain things.

What's been changed so far:


HUD:

Chaos HUDs are now in the correct aspect ratio.

Guns:

CPP: Damage up to 20, proj speed up to 4000 from 3000, fixed an issue with delayed CPP projectile effects
Claw 2: Defaults to Needlers
  • Needlers mode: Fires more needles for more damage (110 for a complete hit), altfire Needlers detonate after 3 seconds when stuck instead of 5
  • Fire mines mode: Max ammo 6, initial ammo 3
  • Proxy mines mode: Max ammo 8, initial ammo 4, damage up to 85 (simultaneously solves the problem of too many proxies and too weak an AWO option with 60 damage proxies)

Crossbow: Base damage 55, speed up from 3250 to 5500, charged fire max speed up to 14000
MUG: (this thing was really weak and needed a serious buff)
  • Fire: Base damage up to 23, projectile speed up to 1500 from 1000, fire interval down to 0.75 from 1
  • Ice: Same as above except 20 damage

CUTTER: Damage up to 40 from 30, speed up to 5500 from 3250
CGL: Speed up to 1750 from 1250
CUT Sniper: Speed up to 25000 from 15000, damage down to 45 from 65 I think, fire interval 0.8s
  • RPBs deal 80 damage

ERDW: Damage down to 70 from 90, alt damage down to 90 from 180, proj radius halved, fire rate adjusted for better DPS

Chaos DM / TDM:
Melee weapons are available in Chaos DM and Chaos TDM.

Duel / Melee:

Variable refire rates depending on stance.
Block lasts 0.5 seconds and allows an immediate attack once it finishes. You may block every 2.5 seconds.
Blocking an opponent's attack prevents them from swinging again for 1.5 seconds.
Responsibility for initialising a swing's damaging section has been delegated to the swing animation. This means that sounds, trails and damage are now in noticeably better synch.
Animations for swinging have been notified and their speed adjusted where necessary.
Random Weapon Selection online has been fixed. You have a 1% chance of returning a Black Duke's Sword and a 1% chance of a Double Sword when using this option.
The Templar's medium stance has modified left and right attack animations to differentiate it more from the Bastard Sword.
You will no longer spawn with a Bastard Sword in your first round of play online: however, since a delay has been implemented, you will be in first person view before your weapon is added.
You may only parry an attack if you're explicitly blocking or if two lateral attacks meet each other.
Compensated for the online bug where trying to swing immediately after the previous swing ended would result in no action for a second.
Swing check timer at 0.025 instead of 0.05.
Time before a swing can do damage and damage dealt are both stance dependent.
No multiple hits in Duel.
You can only lunge with a melee weapon.
Melee weapons take 20% knockback from non-melee weapons.
Blocking melee weapons reduce the damage and momentum from non-melee direct-hit attacks by 65%.
If hit by an attack, your swing will immediately stop and you will be knocked back.

Stance damage:

Sword 20/25/30
Daggers 20/20/20
Claws 25/25/25
Mace 20/25/30
Warhammer 25/35/45
Templar 20/25/35
Axe 25/35/45
Katana 25/35/45
Staff 20/20/25
Last edited by Azarael on Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:24 am, edited 3 times in total.
Dr.Flay
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Re: Would like to balance the game.

Post by Dr.Flay »

Great stuff :D

How about adding these to the collection?
https://files.myopera.com/dr-flay/unrea ... eePack.zip
The only extra Chaos Melee weapons I ever found.

On a parallel thread, Any chance of importing some "Junk-wars" weapons?
I love Chaos melee with the Junk-wars mod (which you are obviously familiar with),
but it never quite feels right.
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Azarael
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Re: Would like to balance the game.

Post by Azarael »

There's a missing asset "ModMelee" in that package.
Dr.Flay
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Re: Would like to balance the game.

Post by Dr.Flay »

Damnit ! that's just bloody typical.
The file is still there
http://planetunreal.gamespy.com/View.ph ... ail&id=680
http://www.fileplanet.com/147727/140000 ... ee-weapons
Made by "M&M Industries"
Will have to have another hunt elsewhere :(
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Azarael
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Re: Would like to balance the game.

Post by Azarael »

I'm getting into the business of adjusting and expanding weapon functionality.

I'd like to hear any ideas for functionality you've desired on the Chaos weapons.

Currently, my priority is to get the MUG into a usable state - reactions to its basic version have been awful. I'm going to enable the classic fireball-style fire as a state accessible via the Advanced Weapon Option and try to do something about how spammy the stream implementation is. I've also considered an alternative mode for the C.U.T.T.E.R. alt, in which its projectiles would be remotely detonatable and stick into walls. Detonation in the air would spray the shrapnel around in a fashion similar to a Bouncing Betty, whereas wall detonation would spray it along the hitnormal. In bouncing around ideas for the C.U.T.T.E.R, this and explosive razors have been pretty much all I've come up with.
Dr.Flay
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Re: Would like to balance the game.

Post by Dr.Flay »

I'm Gonna have to find a bit of time to post this around a few 2K4 sites for a reaction.
Some people are not aware of the official Chaos site :(

I'm glad you are looking at the flame-thrower, it has always felt wrong.
Whereas the napalm ammo for the grenade-launcher is a joy to use.

I covered some of the areas I think Chaos needs tweaking in a previous post for ideas for the next Chaos
http://www.forums.chaoticdreams.org/vie ... 537#p69024
Some of my points are aimed at the melee, and how it should be improved, and my dislike of the flame-thrower was covered somewhere else that I can't find :(

I do feel that players should always be able to pickup any melee weapon, even if they already have something.
Maybe that could be limited in duel-mode, so you can only pickup the weapon of someone you killed.

Also how about picking up more of the same weapon makes it give more damage, or maybe having multiple melee weapons gives you the ability to throw them (like Junkwars) ?

I like the idea with the explosive razors, this reminds me Chaos should function like the old DE mutator "Volatile Ammo", or have something similar for chain-reaction Chaos.
eg. stick one of the remote detonator devices (including existing Chaos proxy, and sticky-grenades, trip-mines, etc.) by an ammo-pack, and you have an instant booby-trap.
I do this with UT99, and it is most fun priming a box of razor-blades in a room flaggrules
Instant meat-grinder and kills everything :twisted:
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