Vengeance Damage?

[General_Sun]

And the Redemption thing, that's way over powered in Melee, and come to think of it in none melee too. It means that you can never die!

You can still die, because it works only once and after you teleported away you have no relic anymore...

Has never anyone played UT with the DE relics?

Then you just pick it up again some time later. Still too overpowered if you ask me...

You should spawn with like 20 life, instead of full.

[jeditobe1]

i think some of deus's suggestions, used in moderation, could add a bit more strategy. It would also make the system easier to balance. As rflagg mentioned, the DA/strength rule is already in place, and the shield/armor one sounds like a good idea too.

However, imo the decreasing health while a vampire is a bit too much of a drawback. In a small map with lots of players, there wont be a shortage of places to get health, but i know ive spent times on some maps (especially in ONS) where i dont see the enemy for minutes at a time). While i agree this could be part of the strategy, i think it is just too crippling unless it is very slow.

Veng/Superweapons is an interesting idea though.... Problem is it doesnt help with most small maps (since they dont have superweapons usually), which is where the real problems lie.

[Shadowstar]

Deus has some good ideas there, but IMO, if we do that we should make some of the relics more powerful to counter it.

The venge idea seems good to me, but regen would need a bit of a boost if it limits your max health to 100 no matter what.

Whether some maps have these pickups or not is beside the point. Sure, it may be that on some maps certain relics are more useful because of a lack of items, but that's true anyway, and always has been, even in the past. If a map has a lack of healing items, everyone will be going for the regen or vamp relics because its the only way to heal. The only thing we accomplish by preventing people to pick up relevant items is making it universal. Basically, if you have regen, you'll play the same way on a map with superhealth as you will without superhealth, because you can't pick them up anyway, so what's the point? That could actually be a benefit to gameplay.

I like it. I say we give Deus's ideas a try. They certainly seem to be a step in the right direction.

EDIT:

Then you just pick it up again some time later. Still too overpowered if you ask me...

You should spawn with like 20 life, instead of full.

Remember that once you've picked up a relic you can't pick it up again after you dropped it, unless you die first.

[Rythmix]

And what if in the map there's nothing to pick up...Regen, make it a little slower is all...

How about for Regen:
Make it reward you more than one quarter of health only if you hit someone.

So when first picked up, it increases 2hp/sec till it hits 100, if you are already at 100, then it does nothing. Then have it only regenerate in quarters from there. For example:

Start with 100 and get hit and now you have 83 -> no regen unless you hit someone, then it starts going back to 100, if you dont hit anyone and just run away or grapple hide it will do you no good.

now say you get hit again:
Start with 83 and get hit to 69 -> regen to 75 only until you hit someone, then have it start going back up to 100 only if u hit someone, otherwise it stays at 75.

now say you get hit again while its counting up and get knocked down to 44 health. -> regen to only 50 until you hit someone. Then it will goto 75, until you hit someone again, then it can goto 100.

now say u go all the way down to 23 -> regen to 25, hit someone to get it to 50, hit someone again to get 75, hit again to make 100.

This is slightly like vampire, only you dont get the hit points, you just kick start your health to the next step by fighting. if you are a good fighter, then you earn you points, if you are a bad fighter, then you can't just run around all day like a llama and hide till your health goes all the way back up And repeat. if you are doing that, you don't deserve the regen, its meant to give those in the heat of the battle a little more for their money while they fight, to get that last hit in before biting it yourself.

[TKATK]

Well,the point of regen is to go away and lick youre wounds,i can say that im perfectly ok with the current balance,only that the relics are dropped seems like a unbalancing factor

[zde.pt]

Hi there! Just a regular player here,don't expect much..

Well I kinda agree with RFlagg..and I'd like to comment on that issue..:
I find it a bit boring having a redeemer-like blast in a small-to-medium map every 30 or 40 sec.. Dying makes it easier than shooting others:X
IMHO,the blast is too powerful,and the radius is too big..The explosion animation is waay too big as well..it's like if the whole map was on fire..and as RF said,fps really go down;

I think deus.ex.machina's ideas are pretty cool, that would balance more the relic system.. Maybe the relics should also spawn from time to time(as someone said) rather than staying there all the time.. And as General_Sun said, it would be nice to prevent the explosion if anyone picked up the relics in the 2sec period!

PS yeah mebbe regen is also a bit overpowered after all

Hugs*

[jb]

Currently we have been talking about this in the Dev section. And here is where we are headed.

1) May scrap this effect, but save the effect and use it to replace the deemer exposions.

2) Base the new effect off something Flag brought up where instead of a "bomb type" effect, go with more of an effect that spawns a "ghost" object. The idea is that upon dying, the player releases the restless spirts from the land of the dead to seek vengence on his/her/its enemies! One for each player thats in the LOS thats "close enough". These "ghost" will then move towards their targets. And if they touch them they will cause damage. These "ghost" have a sort life span and can only with stand "some" damage before being basnished back to the realm of the dead. To balanace it out these "ghost" need 60 seconds to "recharge" so the relic is moved and hidden till its ready again.

Of course all details and effects are just ideas...and this may or may not happen...just something that seems to be liked so far in our talks.

[TKATK]

Ditching the effect:i think thats a good idea,currently its just too much,hoped a more evil looking one...lighting flash,red light,wall of fire,that routine myself

Spirits:I think the spirits shouldnt do damage but kill outright,they have to do 1 person at a time,right?if yes,then its oughta be instakill imo,a skilled player will kill it as soon as the laugh starts anyway

[Shadowstar]

We could make them flying skulls, since the effect already uses skulls. Would be consistent. I can even give them evil laughs and make them sound like something out of a bad horror movie.

[General_Sun]

No don't kill ourright, then there wouldn't be any point to winning the fight!

Even with vengence you can still run away on most maps.

I like the ghost idea.

[jb]

Yea I am thinking that killing them out right may not make the best for balance. Hurting them badly will. Again will through some stuff around and see what comes up

[Rythmix]

Yea I am thinking that killing them out right may not make the best for balance. Hurting them badly will. Again will through some stuff around and see what comes up

agreed

[Shadowstar]

Of course, good vengeance would entail making thier life a living hell rather than killing them or hurting them alot. Perhaps rather than outright damage, we could have these skulls pester them, following them all over the place and randomly taking little "bites" out of them, for like 15-20 points of damage each. They would never go away until the person dies. Some people would just kill themselves to get rid of them.

Of course, the big problem with that is that it borders on "too annoying"...

[Rythmix]

Of course, good vengeance would entail making thier life a living hell rather than killing them or hurting them alot. Perhaps rather than outright damage, we could have these skulls pester them, following them all over the place and randomly taking little "bites" out of them, for like 15-20 points of damage each. They would never go away until the person dies. Some people would just kill themselves to get rid of them.

Of course, the big problem with that is that it borders on "too annoying"...

I was thinking the same thing with the pestering. how about they pester and bite until player health is 5, then stop so that player has one slight chance of using skill and map health packs to get his health back.... but then again, no one would want to kill a vengeance holder, that person would be like the mob boss, no one wants to touch him.So there needs to be some way of escaping, similar to escaping the blast range by turning a corner or getting the hell out of the way quickly.

[Shadowstar]

Another thing we could try is having it create an explosion of diseased darts that infect anyone they hit. The disease works like poison, but never wears out. The only thing that can stop it is death or a big keg of health. This way, it would slowly kill the person, as well as being mildly annoying (but not too annoying), and could still be evaded or cured if you knew how to do it (grab a keg).

Course, it doesn't have to be darts... Could maybe be smoke or something. We'd have to find a way to make it consistent with the whole vengeance theme. But the gameplay effect I think is a good one.