Chaotic Dreams

Yeah, I have been in contact with Rim about my non-findings... its really a shame... I will post my final finds on the announcement board.

FurrySound{Moo}

playing last night, and I just remembered another "bug" when you're killed by an explosive arrow, the MOD message is for a grenade.... I grabbed the chaos sources, to try and work on some of this, but unfortunately Its takeing me some time to get the GCC makefile transfered into a msvc++ 6 usable one.... if anyone has one already it would be quite beneficial, and some of those things could be fixed rather quickly.

Ok well I made my own makefile and was able to compile a dll with no problems .... well other than mine large (512k) compared to the "real" chaos dll (480k) hehe 1st thing I figured out is the reason explosive arrows say you tripped on your own grenade is that they don;t have an independant splash damage from the grenades . so If I kill you with an explosive arrow or a grenade... its shrapnel, If I kill myself with an explosive arrow, or a grenade.... I tripped over my GRENADE!

fixing this now. for my own use if noone else is interested

Oh I'm interested all right, and watching.

So, if and when you get into some of the gameplay issues, perhaps we can arrange some beta testing, and go from there. Fixing the incorrect death message is a start, and a good one. But of course you'll need more than that to get folks interested in updating.

I for one would have to see something like airgun fixed, or weapon kicking removed, to make any updates worthwhile. Well, guess I should not presume to speak for anyone else. But yeah, I would need something big gameplay wise to mess with it. Though if you do that, I'm here for testing and promoting if you need it.

BTW- I like how it doesn't put everything in the autoexec. My autoexec is like 5 lines, including 'exec flagg.cfg'. Which is of course where my keybindings are. Would not want to change that.

Hey flagg.... the autoexec thing is purely individual as long as you have an autoexec.cfg to start the ball rolling you're good to go you can set that up anyway you want my way your way anything goes tonight..... (danm I think I just quoted Guns & Roses), and people please don't say anything about where were you for q3 arena, I didn't know anything about coding then, I was working on maps, and in my opinion the guy with the ball went home, and didn;t come back! In any event this is probably for my own learning if nothing else.... and just a heads up thing is something I'm just getting into C programming. Things like weapons kicking should not be touched or at most set as a server variable. Some people complain to me about other servers, or the way a rule is, or a setup is ... the point of going to all the work to setuo so many server variables is obviously to have the ability for 1 server to have crispy arrows, while another server merely gives you a sunburn with them. One server have (ahem) lame turrets, and another make it a challenge to spawn. In other words when you join a chaos server it should be an unpredictable (chaotic) experience.I'm not going to say that weapon kicking into the lava is a good thing, but I'm not going to take the chaos out of Chaos... there are ways to counteract the airgun, turrets, kicking, etc if you know the mod, and use your brain (now please no one say I said Rflagg doesn't use his brain... the written word can be sadlly hard to detect inflection in, and therefore a dangerous thing at times!). I like Flaggheti spaghetti!!No one says this will ever go anywhere even. I'm just doing something for my own interest , as its not my place to say what should or shouldn't be done with the code publicly,and this will not be run on a public server, , and letting it be know publicly to show that the q2 chaos community does not have to die with the advent of ut2003, and if ya think I'm just nuts, or wasting my time then good... ps just woke up so if anyones offended... DOH!

MrG{DRGN}

ps Rflagg, Lothar drop me a line on icq sometime do you stil have me on your lists guys?

All is well.

I don't mind flappin' my gums about Chaos, no biggie if this effort does not become a 'public release' kind of thing. No sweat, I still don't mind gabbin' about it.

And of course you are correct, there is always a way to deal with things like weapon kicking. My favorite method is kick/banning players.

But, just for the record, the Chaos team intentionaly left weapon kicking out of the CUT version, even though Fred saw exactly how to add it. And there is no plan on adding it back, at any point in time. Not gonna say anything is every 100%, but there was/is a pretty clear consensus that this is not a good feature. Even further, it will always be one of my #1 priorities, as long as I have a voice on the team, to never allow this feature back in the game.

In other words when you join a chaos server it should be an unpredictable (chaotic) experience

Again, this is all just for the heck of it. Couple guys sitting on a porch jawin' about Chaos.

I agree, to a point. I like server variables, but I want to recognize the game when I come in. This topic extends even farther than example we are on right now. Even in our CUT2 version in development, we do not have a concensus on how far we should go with the options. How much do we let them turn off, and still call it 'Chaos'?

Example; we had in CUT an option to make Chaos weapons cycle with, or replace, the standard UT weapons. One server option being floated now is whether or not to allow server to 'ignore' Chaos weapons, which would leave them out completely. The game would have all the other Chaos features, but not weapons. Would you think, Mr.G, that falls in your acceptable 'unpredictable' Chaos, or is it going to far?

this will not be run on a public server

Who knows? Don't sell yourself short this early. Perhaps you'll dig what you are doing, and go farther. Perhaps you'll like what you are doing, and pick up UT2 and uscript while you're at it. Perhaps you'll come to my place for all veggie bar-b-q next summer. Nobody knows the future.

I have a very long, stormy relationship with ICQ. While I have allowed it to remain on my harddrive for critical bug testin, clan matchin times, I am rarely on it. But next time I dust if off, I'll check for you on my list. Would love to chat though, so...,

I am rflaggmoo and MobileMoo on AOL's IM service, depending on whether or not I'm at PC or using my cell phone. Want more? I'll even give you my cell number via PM if you ever want to gab, or look for game, whatever. No long distance charges, so I've been using it more and more these days to talk to Chaos folks. (on weekends- free minutes)

Chaos without chaos weapons = not chaos.... there are other mods with the non weapon features of chaos such as xtreme, painkeep etc... flashlight, antigravity belt/boots/ grapple, techs are not exclusive to chaos I don't recall all the features right now because to be honest I'm drugged up due to an abcessed tooth. without proxiemines vortexes, crossbows.... hey does UT have flash grenades/lasermines.... I can;t remember if not it shoud UT does at times seem to fall into the catagory of too configurable... if I'm talking out my butt let me know LOL. Kicking people for kicking weapons is not a realistic gameplay option though. I was talking about gameplay not something accesable to admins /rcon users only. but the toggleability(is that even a word) for kicking weapons/ airgun requiring say cells(or adjusting strength/firerate ), would be an useful feature. I wouldn;t say eliminate these features current states entirley because to be honest it wouldn['t be fair to just change the way something works at this last state of q2s life. As far as UT script goes I'd proably get into the mapping aspect of that 1st. As My time right now is better spent learning C , C++, Java, programming which arent't proprietary to one gaming system. As well as the fact I've been working on a q2 mod of my own which your clan mate E (oh hey) can attest to. I'll be adding you to Aohell when I download it again as I truthfull find it a bother to work with,

p.s.
I like kicking people regardless, if weapons are the only issue than thats not a big thing to change. they don;t get destr0yed permanently when kicked under lfts anymore anyway.

p.p.s. I just got a new video card , an ATI Radeon 7500 not state of the art but zounds better than the TNT2 m64 I've had for years now..... I NEVER KNEW THAT LAVA LATER & SLIME WERE TRANSPARENT IN Q2!!!

Hiya G !

That is some cool news. Mooo!
I particularily like the bug you've chosen to tackle first(?)... the bad MOD message for the 'sploders(explosive arrows). I think you and Randy (and most core CDM players for that matter) both know me well enough that you might imagine the countless times I've read that incorrect message. I really should quit trying to use them

Even further, it will always be one of my #1 priorities, as long as I have a voice on the team, to never allow this feature back in the game.

Ya ya but anyways.... I'm just in the middle of talking with MrG on ICQ about how to get you to change your mind on that one

...and now the phone is ringing ....

Later

You're right lothar... if we arange for any items that are kicked off the map or into the lava to be exchanged with flagg then he should have no problesm with it affecting game play.... now the trick is for him not to get kicked off the map or into the lava so he doesn't telefrag all the weapons.... don't be a slacker Flagg win one for the gipper, move over now cause I'm a double dipper....

NO this isn't in the plan LOL

...now wouldn't That be Chaotic?
hehe


R.Flagg : What I asked MrG was if there a way to make the weapons respawn right away the way the CTF flags do. I'm no coder but maybe it's as simple as having each wep check every couple of secs to see that it's either being carried by a player or on it's spawn spot? Maybe the code that makes the flags react as they do can simply be cut and applied?
Would you change your stance on kicking in Q2 if the weapons behaved like that?

I'm a big fan of kicking but I do understand it's abuse potential as far as making weapons unavailable to players. There should be a way to curb the abuse without removing the toy. It's a fun toy.
I don't know if you've ever had a swordfight while the two of you are hanging by your hooks on about 20-30 feet of rope, but I assure you it would be nowhere near as much fun if you couldn't kick the guy too!

Also Hasben wrote:

Rapid fire kicking.... kicking needs a fire rate setting

I think so too, but not too slow please. One of the best things about the Chaos Kick is (hehe IMO) when you gat someone in a corner and just start putting the boots right to them - the rapid-fire kick sound is great! Often I try to kick out the rythym "Shave and a haircut... two bits"!
hehe Oh, and I'd still like to be able to get lucky and deflect the occasional rocket
I guess I'd like it to be fast enough so I can pound my kick key and not "miss a beat" but not so fast that someone could use it effectively for example in a +forward alias (or anything) without having to use a boatload of waits.

I'm no coder

Not much of one myself yet

but maybe it's as simple as having each wep check every couple of secs to see that it's either being carried by a player or on it's spawn spot?

The problem with that i think might be that its sucking alot of cpu/bandwidth to keep checking that .My thought on that was give the weps a health value.... if they fall in the lava, or off the map into the void then they get damaged "die" and respawn... I don't see a problem with them being kicked down the hallway.... or anyplace accessable by the player, heck we got anti-gravity belts, grapples, teleballs... lots of wasy to get there.... and again this may be a far way off.... if at all. if someone is smart enough to bind kick to two or more keys & do a drumroll pattern on it , or make a multi kick alias then thats not cheating its using your brain.... however some server definable rate limit/debounce timer may be in order. the maximum # of times youe keyboard will take input it 30 per second thats overkill as even rockets with haste don;t go that fast.... so more things to ponder gentlemen... the thing is options are unlimited my skills at the moment are.... I woke up this am thinking.... who hits what they're kicking everytime... why not slip & fall on your butt if you miss..... lol

GO NICK LOWRY GO PELE!!![/quote][/code]

Kicking is good clean fun. Weapon kicking is not. And weapon kicking is what we left out of CUT, you can kick most every thing else.

MrG{DRGN} wrote:
My thought on that was give the weps a health value.... if they fall in the lava, or off the map into the void then they get damaged "die" and respawn... I don't see a problem with them being kicked down the hallway.... or anyplace accessable by the player,

Not good enough. "anyplace accessable by the player" Bingo. As much of the time, the weapons are not kicked into lava, or 'in the void'. There are other ways to kick a weapon out of play. Which I'll not expand on.

if someone is smart enough to bind kick to two or more keys & do a drumroll pattern on it , or make a multi kick alias then thats not cheating its using your brain....

With respect Sir, I could not disagree more. You don't have to be very smart to go to the cheater llama websites and get lame tips. Any clown can do that. Many guys are smart enough to change their NASCAR cars to make them go faster, doesn't make it right. There is no honor in changing the playing field to achieve victory.

And to lay out just my own personal opinion, which is mine alone, got nothing to do with the mod, .....but in my world, aliases are also lame. It's the 1st step towards me competing against your computer, and not you. If you want to beat me, if you want the true thrill of victory, then do it yourself. Anything else is just you kidding youself.

Kicking rockets (and the rest) in CUT was not as spam-easy in as in Q2, so I never made an issue of it. But this also, is a problem of course. And it's something I will continue to monitor as we add the kick to CUT2.

why not slip & fall on your butt if you miss..... lol

I can almost go there with you, but not quite. I don't like the idea of the computer deciding randomly if I muffed. These games are fun because they are a neat way to match skills with your buddy. But this may penalize me even when I've aced my boot to your head like a pissed off Barichnikov.

But...., coding it so I replace the kicked weapon, why that's just pure genius boys, let me know when it's ready!

And to lay out just my own personal opinion

Sad to say but it seems like this should have been first line Sir. You have strong opinions, but you cannot expect everyone to agree with them! Lines like

But this also, is a problem of course.

are opinion under the guise of fact. I have a huge problem with generalized statements like aliases are lame. With out the use of an alias you would not be able to use the netgraph with ease

//NETGRAPH
alias ng_on "netgraph 1;alias ng_toggle ng_off"
alias ng_off "netgraph 0;alias ng_toggle ng_on"
alias ng_toggle "ng_on"
bind INS "ng_toggle"


or even the grappling hook in Weapons of Destruction.

alias +hook "hook2 action" // Fires Hook
alias -hook "hook2 stop"
alias +shrink "hook2 shrink" // Allows player to climb up chain
alias -shrink "hook2 stop" // Stop ascending up chain
alias +grow "hook2 grow" // Allows player to climb-down chain
alias -grow "hook2 stop" // Stop descending down chain
bind mouse2 +hook

the only reason chaos doesn't need something like this is because its pre-aliased in the C code for the dll. You could not even toggle the console without them. So like it, or not you use them.
I DO have a problem with the potential rate of the kick , that however is a coding problem not a usage problem. It should have had its repeat rate limited by a debounce time when it was made. I don't see the logic in punishing someone for the mod makers design flaws though. It was asking for trouble.

The airgun should use ammo, have its strength limited… OR…. I even thought the possibility of deducting health each time its used as a deterrent to abuse.

Boring the motor of a racecar .30 over, and using all the tools that quake2 offers the player is hardly a good analogy! In q2 everyone has the opportunity to set things up anyway they want without the use of external things. The field is level. if people don't know how to do something they have forums where they can ask....an alias is not something that some people can do but someone else can not The field is level.

If I’m expected to have to have my fov at 90 because everyone else does to even the field(puke city), to use the arrow keys for movement because everyone else does , to use the number keys for weapons because everyone else does to even the field …

Well that’s rubbish! If it was meant to be played that way ID would have hard coded it that way.

There are other ways to kick a weapon out of play. Which I'll not expand on.

If there are other real issues with it then. holding back information is not doing anyone any good. Otherwise. You tend to get out of things what you put into them. Wthout infomation nothing can be done. There are more than one way to prevent the absolute loss of a weapon on the map other than eliminating weapon kicking. which quite a few people DO enjoy,
and kicking rockets, grenades, proxies, hyperblaster bolts, etc takes considerably more skill than hitting the fire button.

I can almost go there with you, but not quite. I don't like the idea of the computer deciding randomly if I muffed. These games are fun because they are a neat way to match skills with your buddy. But this may penalize me even when I've aced my boot to your head like a pissed off Barichnikov.

where did that come from?? When you hit the key & don't connect with something... nothing random about it.. that was just a blurb anyway its fine as it stands, and not likely to be something to add to chaos.

In any case I've spent far to much thought, time, and effort trying to get my thoughts across , without stepping on anyones toes. Maybe I did a good job, maybe I bruised some relationships with certan players. A good friend told me I should just say I aggree to disagree, but I didn't feel that I should back down on this one. So if I'm excommunicated from chaos, kicked form all the hip servers, forced to wear a big red letter "C" I just want to say one thing. I hope all of you have a Cool Yule, Happy Chanukah, Merry Christmas, Joyfull Kwanza, Scintilting Solstice, great holiday season,ad infinitum.

Dude, chill.

We're still on the porch jawin' remember?

Of course I have strong opinions, proud of it. But the fact that many people quit playing, arguments ensue, players have been kicked from servers, all over weapons kicking, that is not an opinion, that is a fact. I have seen it many times over in the years I've been playing. Demos have been made, threads locked, you name it. This much is fact.

The part about aliases, well, um..., no of course I don't have a problem with netgraph. Geez. Or my little alias I got from eidolon that makes my guy dance. I'm talking about aliases that get your weapons for you, kick for you, PLAY for you.

I'm out of time. Going to work. But relax man. You can disagree with me all day long and I'm not going to be upset. I'm quite used to it.

Sorry sir, hard not to bite on whats seems like bait like your dropping. See ya in the killing fields.
Airfist uses
15 cells per shot. Probably too much.... willl experiment with toning down the being push through walls, but to be honest this may have been setup as a feature from the looks of things because if you did't get pushed into the walls/ ceiling , you'd crater