Melee could go a long way... ideas

[chaoskirina]

Actually, they may be right about the speed. here is my suggestion:

When a player with a melee wep gets close or some other player(Non-team) they actually speed up. if the first can outrun the melee holder, then the player slows again. OR you can reverse that! make them fast until they get near a player and then they slow down.

[lord_kungai]

Actually, they may be right about the speed. here is my suggestion:

When a player with a melee wep gets close or some other player(Non-team) they actually speed up. if the first can outrun the melee holder, then the player slows again. OR you can reverse that! make them fast until they get near a player and then they slow down.

Nice Idea!
sounds like a berserker charge.

But...

This entire concept of melee wep holder being able to take out or even dare challenge a gun holder sucks. Melee is best against melee, gun against gun. IMVHO dont think melee wep holders should be given the chance to kill a gun holder, by letting them fast dodge or increase their speed. However, for better melee fights, the melee wep anims can be sped up. Instead of having slow swipes with no delay between shots, maybe u could have a charge up timer (like the cpp AWO) that makes weps swing much faster and harder but take longer to recover from that swing.

This would also eradicate the need for 'weight' stances and maybe u could replace this with 'direction' stances. Instead of heavy medium and light, u ould have horizontal stance, vertical stance and jab stance. Horizontal stance will allow the player to do sideways swipes (better chance to hit opponent but no headshot). Vertical stance will allow players to do up-down swipes (headshot chance but less chance to hit opponent). Jab stance allows the player to jab an opponent (very little chance to hit opponent but high amounts of damage can be gained). This will also prevent some players from sticking wholly to one stance.

[The_0men]

No every weapon has to have a even chance....and i dont think you should run fast untill you get to an enemy because they just run backwards and shoot and your not gonna reach them!!!

Why not just add all these options like run speed depending on weapon, blocking bullets and fast dodging to a server menu like the revenge explosion animation????? So the server can decide whats best and it will give freer options.

[Shadowstar]

We can't change the speed of the animations. Engine limitation.

[LoQtUS]

I have been looking at the ChaosMeleeAnimations. I'm curious to know what program was used to create them. The bone structure of the UT2004 player meshes is extremely felxible. There is very little that can't be done.

Comparing the Melee animations to that of the standard player animations (HumanFemaleA) of the actual game, really shows that the Melee animations are of a tremendously lower standard. (Probably due to deadline limitations?) I'd hate to think it was just lazyness!

I dont know how much you have worked with the Engine and the animations but the statement of it being extremely flexable is incorrect. There are alot of things that i have attempted to do but was stuck because of the way CS and the engine interact with the bones. I used max 5 and the version of CS that comes with it to create those animations. Im sorry you dont seem to think they are quality, guess im just lazy

A prime example. Look at the Katana S3 animations. Noone can move their wrist like that. And it is a good example of how NOT to animate with IK/FK.

This sounds very harsh, I realize. But it is just a critisism.

If you were to use 3dsMAX4 CS, I strongly feel that all the animations could have been done far better.

Well seeing as i used max 5 and CS i dont think that was a contributing factor to the quality of the animations. Maybe i just suck. I realize that no one can move their wrists the way the animations move with the S3 animations for the katana but the think i really dont think you are talking into consideration is the fact that the katana is attached to the hand and could not be moved without it. Hence i had a choice. Follow what is possable by real humans or do the manuvers that i wanted to be possable in game. As i felt the the game play was more inportant then weather a wrist could move in the manner that i was moving it i did so. Sorry that you feel i made the wrong choice. As the animations were not done with IK/FK you statement is kind of off base

You may be thinking, put your money where your mouth is, and I'd be glad to. I don't have access to your source code, nor have access to your source animations, but if I did, I would gladly help bring the quality of the Melee feature to a higher standard.

You dont need either to play around with it. We just seriously frown on anything being released to the public that would overwrite or interact with our files in a way we did not intend for them to be used.

As you can tell, the mere fact of the Melee feature's existence has gotten me very excited. THE FEATURE MUST LIVE ON!! And of course, evolve! BUT before you add too many things to it, consider that the further you go, the harder it will be to come back to fix the basics.

We can't change the speed of the animations. Engine limitation.

This is not true. the speed of the animations can be changed in the editor, and they can be changed by the code, as well as being changed before inporting. BUT, Asi have stated before making the animations faster will make the movement more jerky and will not be even of the apparent low quality that they are now.

[Kaboodles]

It's not how long the animations last. It's the actual speed of the weapons. The dagger heavy attacks move too slowly, IMO. You could compromise by having them swing faster, but putting a delay at the beginning, or a long recovery time.

Oh yeah, please make blocking useful.

[GB]

i think the animations speed wise are spot on.

The fact is, just because someone chooses to use a melee weapons doesnt mean to say that they can amazingly summon up uber speed -why should they be able to? lightweight weaponry? bloodlust? fear? nah.

does that mean that users of the cpp and pistols weapons,should be able to do the same, since they are carring comparitly light weapons also? lets have the players move at 10% speed for carring a huge rocket launcher.....i think not. The fact is, its a basic weapon for a reason. Whats the point of fighting your way through the camped rocket spawn point, or blasting your way to the flak cannon, just to be outclassed by an axe?
if u want to use melee weapons so much why dont u just set a melee only match? or get a weapon switcher mut and add them in with less powerful guns.

And as for the statement of the anims being poor quality>i totally dont agree. i didnt work on these (nor could i,i have no idea how to animate), but i have to say i was impressed with them. Most of them (katana less so) look like realistc movements which could be performed with these weapons. The fact is, at least as they are, the weapons are balanced and the player actually looks like he knows how to use them.

Im not keen on speeding up the anims. Here's why: go outside and pick up a 7lb mash hammer. This is about 1/5 the size of the Ut one. Try swinging it for 60seconds. Hard to go fast yeah? if any weapon was to be speeded up it would have to be the katana, since theseare relativly lightweight and speedy weapons. But then, to speed up that would just make the other weapons look even slower, so what the point.

Dont add any matrix "inspired" (should i say 70's martial art film(s) rip off) stuff to melee. There already about 1000 mods out there for every game to add that stuff. its usually buggy, lame and plays like a piece of *%^*.

Kaboodles_The_Assassin: i cant say i see whats wrong with blocking, i do it and it seems to work, unless u are surrounded, in which case you're doomed anyway. if blocking is too effective then u will enivtably get block campers or something lame like that).

[General_Sun]

Agreed. Melee system is great as it is. Some animations could be refined and improved, but drastic changes to entire system is not needed...

What are needed however, are new animations and new weapons...

Speeding things up is lame... Takes away the strategy and skill aspect of it...

As for the blocking, I don't think it's useful at all.

We should try to make them more useful. I would support some different animations and faster blocking speed.

How bout this idea? When blocking, your movement speed is decreased as well as for a few seconds afterwards. The second btwn pressing the alt fire and the second btwn the weapon comes down should be decreased... However, the cooltime down between blocks should be increased so prevent laming. The slowtime of movement speed also helps this. So when you engage, you can hit block, and actually block the enemy, but it's not easy to keep blocking and never get hit.

[lord_kungai]

Im not keen on speeding up the anims. Here's why: go outside and pick up a 7lb mash hammer. This is about 1/5 the size of the Ut one. Try swinging it for 60seconds. Hard to go fast yeah? if any weapon was to be speeded up it would have to be the katana, since theseare relativly lightweight and speedy weapons. But then, to speed up that would just make the other weapons look even slower, so what the point.

It's not how long the animations last. It's the actual speed of the weapons. The dagger heavy attacks move too slowly, IMO. You could compromise by having them swing faster, but putting a delay at the beginning, or a long recovery time.

Both are correct.

The attacks need to be a bit faster in order to improve their effect as melee weps. Making them faster will also make it easier to kill other players, satisfying 2 needs (melee weps against guns, melee CCTF). maybe, instead of increasing the wep speed, you could increase the wep acceleration, so that it doesnt look like the player starts swinging his hammer damn fast, but as he is swinging it, it picks up speed to deliver a crushing blow to his opponent (notice the subtle usage of a pun ). Some weps (katana, daggers) however, actually have to be made faster.

[General_Sun]

Melee CCTF will never work. That is, unless the flag carrier is slowed down signifcantly enough to be caught up to by the melee wielder. Because there's a current situation called the Runners syndrome, where you just run and someone could never catch you...

[GB]

Im not keen on speeding up the anims. Here's why: go outside and pick up a 7lb mash hammer. This is about 1/5 the size of the Ut one. Try swinging it for 60seconds. Hard to go fast yeah? if any weapon was to be speeded up it would have to be the katana, since theseare relativly lightweight and speedy weapons. But then, to speed up that would just make the other weapons look even slower, so what the point.

It's not how long the animations last. It's the actual speed of the weapons. The dagger heavy attacks move too slowly, IMO. You could compromise by having them swing faster, but putting a delay at the beginning, or a long recovery time.

Both are correct.

thats not quite what i meant but nevermind. I was just trying to point out that i think the anims are speed wise accurate enough in comparision to real life. The fact is, the dagger heavy attacks are slow for a purpose, a heavy attack should be drastically slower. To be fair, i only use the daggers on heavy stance, and am quite effective with them (yes,even against human players). To speed up the anims would also reduce the damage (i had this pointed out by the coders and animators) since the damage is based on the time the weapon is in contact with the player. To speed up the anims on their own without effecting damage values would just make the system look even more buggy as damage would be dealt out of sync with the impacts.

Also, on something like the hammer, to accelerate on the downstroke you would have to also deaccelerate on the upstroke (as its damn heavy to lift up) and that would mean faster strikes, but the same time overall for the attack, so what would be the point?

As for blocking, im still not convinced. i find blocking in small does fine, and reliable. mind you, my usual style of play does not neccesitate much defense tho, so i may not be seeing it since i dont block too often...attack,attack,attack!

Edit:

Melee CCTF will never work. That is, unless the flag carrier is slowed down signifcantly enough to be caught up to by the melee wielder. Because there's a current situation called the Runners syndrome, where you just run and someone could never catch you...

yeap. totally, and to allow even crossbows (which would be in theme) into the match would mean that most ppl would use them in favour of melee weapons.

[General_Sun]

As for blocking, im still not convinced. i find blocking in small does fine, and reliable. mind you, my usual style of play does not neccesitate much defense tho, so i may not be seeing it since i dont block too often...attack,attack,attack!

That's because blocking is quite useless. If blocking is made more useful, you might get into a pattern of attack, defend, attack.

[The_0men]

Yea i agree mabe if clicking the block button+direction= block from that direction would happen and the block really does "block" then that would made melee a little more intresting and tactical.....Kinda like where u attack....u go a direction and attack it does a move, a different direction and attack it does a different move. Does anyone understand me or see where im comming from???lol

[eightpass]

Before dismissing that the Bones are truly flexible. take a look at the taunt animations that come with UT. Smooth, Quick and Complex. Then take a look at a game like Soul Calibur, surely some of the moves can be emulated. What I beleive is that perhaps real sword maneuvers were not studied before creating alot of the moves.

The light stance for most weapons has the best feel to it, because the moves aren't too long. they don't swing the weapon around aimlessly before making the 'actual' swing.

Also, the idea of Horizontal, Vertical and Jab moves, is a VERY good idea. And it will also give you a better mental picture of how to animate them.

food for thought.

[LoQtUS]

Before dismissing that the Bones are truly flexible. take a look at the taunt animations that come with UT. Smooth, Quick and Complex. Then take a look at a game like Soul Calibur, surely some of the moves can be emulated. What I beleive is that perhaps real sword maneuvers were not studied before creating alot of the moves.

Well the complexity of the animations are limited quite a bit by the fact that for the melee system you can only animate above the waste.If you animate below the waste it will destroy the animation blending, and instead of the player running he will glide across the ground. Not pretty at all. As for emulatind some other game I would prefer to be original. Sorry if you dont think the manuvers are realistic enough for you. You do have to remember, Chaos is not a realism mod.

The light stance for most weapons has the best feel to it, because the moves aren't too long. they don't swing the weapon around aimlessly before making the 'actual' swing.

Again, Sorry you dont like them.

Also, the idea of Horizontal, Vertical and Jab moves, is a VERY good idea. And it will also give you a better mental picture of how to animate them.

food for thought.

There are horizontal "jab" manuvers. They are called lunges by us and are done with a combination of keys. Also some of the light manuvers could be concidered " jab" moves. I truly dont understand why you would want manuvers that jabed upwords. Usualy your opponent is infront of you. Melee is usualy not about z axis play.