Chaotic Dreams

Posted: **Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:17 pm**

R.Flagg wrote:Only if you fail to recognize the issues inherent in having too many GUI options in your game. If your logic were that 'simple' - than Chaos, even UT2004 itself, would have tons more of these so-called options.

The issue of how many, and what kind, of options to provide is not something that we alone have discussed. In the past I have even linked you to some pro game designers talking on the topic.

Well I do think too many GUI options are bad but I also dont think we are there yet. Remember ever one has differemt ideas on whats good for this and whats not. And I don't care what pro game desingers are doing as we are different (unless we are making a game for a consol as thats seems to be where all the developers are going). Chaos has more features then some complete games do!

I don't think anyone established that this is commonplace at all.

I just feel that my opinion here is perfectly in line with our stated goal (and no matter what other mod teams have done, my desire to see that goal thru has not changed).

Like I mentioned in IRC, we have always said that our goal is to "blend", and be as if from the game. And since only flying vehicles are mouse-steered in UT2004, then yes, IMO changing that for the bike is not working towards that goal as good as we could be.

I understand the gears are now coming out, and I think the logic here is exactly the same.

Hmmm did not think the raptor/cidia was able to be mouse controlled (in all DOF). "Blending" is area that left open to discussion. Maybe we should add mouse steering opition to all vehciles? Lots of "other" games are doing it and mods are doing it, maybe it is a trend? Yes we try to blend when we can but sometimes our ideas our outside what is UT2k4 (melee for example). In those cases then we should be able to have more freedom. I guess I dont see the issue here. Its there as an option and it works. If you dont want it then dont use it. I could see mouse strearing be something that all chaos vehicles use. And maybe even extend it to all vehciles...

BTW the gears only came out of the bike as an attempt to comprise with some team differences and we had some issues with the way they shift not because they were "outside" of UT2k4...

Posted: **Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:23 am**

Well, first of all I just want to say that we don't really contribute to the discussion(s) by saying "some agree, and some don't", as that will pretty much always be the case. Even on a mod team of limited size (let alone the vast sea of the internet). Same thing with comments like "Thats your opinion ...", when someone posts a design suggestion. Of course it's their opinion, what else could it be?

Anyway, just wanted to say that continuously stating the obvious like that doesn't make any points, or contribute to the discussion.

And I don't care what pro game desingers are doing as we are different ....

Well, Ok. But let's be fair here. You quoted pro games and even mods to argue against suggested tweaks I have made..., but when I take that route and try to quote pros to support my opinion on something.., suddenly you don't care what pros are doing.

That doesn't afford me the same opportunity to support my views as you are permitting yourself.

Hmmm did not think the raptor/cidia was able to be mouse controlled

This is why I suggested in dev section that members of this team should be required to join online and look at these things together from time to time, so we can ensure folks voting against suggested tweaks to improve the mod, actually understand the items in question.

For a semi-related example, it wasn't that long ago I learned by chance in map-layout conversation, that one of our newer mappers was unaware that it was possible to dodge-jump up ramps like in DM-Rankin. A basic, fundamental movement of UT2004. So there is/was the potential of me (or whoever) having to debate map layout with a mapper who was unaware of some basic movements in the game.

Now of course I'm not saying everyone should be born with that type of knowledge, we were all new at some point. And I'm honestly not trying to embarrass anyone here.

I'm simply saying that if we want a top quality mod, and we are to design by committee..., than each team member should have to show they have at least a decent understanding of a item in question before being able to vote against it (or for it), and possibly shutting down potential improvements to the mod (or adding something sub-par).

I am convinced that would be in the best interest of Chaos and it's fans.

Lots of "other" games are doing it and mods are doing it, maybe it is a trend?

Again, if you are going to use this method of support for your views, will you then allow me the same opportunity?

Yes we try to blend when we can but sometimes our ideas our outside what is UT2k4 (melee for example).

Let's look at that, as I feel it's actually a flawed argument.

If say for example, UT2004 already had melee, and we were going to add 1 (one) melee weapon, AND have it's controls work differently then what all the other weapons did..., then you might have made a point.

However, there were no melee weapons in the game - so we were able to add some, and give them our own controls. Which by the way ..., work the same for each of them, across the board. There isn't one that works differently than the rest. Which actually supports my view rather well I think.

Same deal with a grav belt, or a grapple, or KOTH, or whatever. The idea isn't that we don't 'blend' because we add new items. Of course not. The idea is to somehow take the items that we add, and make them appear as if they came with the game.

So while there may be examples that could have made the point you wanted to make, I don't think melee is one of them.

Posted: **Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:08 am**

Jb wrote:Well I do think too many GUI options are bad

Ahh, a 50 page list of GUI options for CDM

Chaos has more features then some complete games do!

That is SOOOO true!

"Blending" is area that left open to discussion.

If it's all about blending, why do mods even exist?

Maybe we should add mouse steering opition to all vehciles? Lots of "other" games are doing it and mods are doing it, maybe it is a trend?

Well, the bike really needs mouse steering... But if you're talking about making UT2k4 out-of-the-box vehicles mouse steered... How would you do aiming then? Well, hellbender would work, but scorpion or levi would already be a prob.

Yes we try to blend when we can but sometimes our ideas our outside what is UT2k4. In those cases then we should be able to have more freedom. I guess I dont see the issue here.

The issue is there is no issue

Its there as an option and it works. If you dont want it then dont use it.

Well, if you don't like duel, for example, cause it doesn't blend (tell me who's THAT dumb? To not play sonething cause it doesn't blend??), don't play it! And rather play CDM or KOTH or CCTF or... Or whatever

I could see mouse strearing be something that all chaos vehicles use.

Exacly.

Code: Select all

 And maybe even extend it to all vehciles...

Well, I can see a scorpion mouse steered, but i can't see the scorpion aiming then...

BTW the gears only came out of the bike as an attempt to comprise with some team differences and we had some issues with the way they shift not because they were "outside" of UT2k4...

I'd never got up with gears, lol. I usually forget to put the bike into higher gear, but I'm learning not to. Whoever written the gear code, thanks for not adding engine failure to it, lol

Blending, blending, blending... What are mods for then? They're to change the gameplay, and with that "unblend" from the normal play. I agree with Jb. It isn't an issue.

Posted: **Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:40 pm**

I think we may be getting sidetracked. As long as what we are doing is improving the gameplay, we shouldn't let other concerns get in the way of progress. If it doesn't blend 100%, but it does add to the fun factor and gameplay variety, then I think its probably ok to put it in. You also have to look at how some things SHOULD be, regardless of anything else. If it seems to feel better or allow more control to be mouse-steered then we should give it some serious thought. After all, if we make it complicated and difficult to control, nobody will even use the bike. Sure, it may blend, but how is it contributing to Chaos? Might as well remove it.

I'm trying to not go either way here, I'm just saying we should look at all our options and not let things that are less important than gameplay get in the way of real progress. Truthfully, I'm really not sure on the bike. Removing the gears is a good idea, I think everyone can agree on that. As for control, mouse-steering is a good attempt at changing it to work better and it might work, but obviously some don't agree. Let's just try to find an option that doesn't make the bike useless and that the majority of the team can agree on. In the end, I think that's the best we can hope for.

Posted: **Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:33 am**

You have gotten side tracked and WAY off topic.

1. Nice idea for a relic
2. I'd like to see a ChaosUT2 truck. Not pickup, semi.

Posted: **Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:34 pm**

IMO,

The Epic steering of vehicles RULZ!!!

Scorpions dont need mouse steering. The manta and the CUT bike do. But I believe that if the CUT bike can be steered like the scorpion (keys for direction of vehicle, mouse for aiming gun) and had swalpa better handling, it would rule!

Posted: **Sat Jul 30, 2005 6:11 pm**

I'd just like to point that UT2k4's vehicles are built so that if it doesn't have a turret, it's mouse steered.

On a totally different note I have some very good engine sounds, so if you want to change the Scorpion/hellbender/Chaosbike's sounds then let me know and I'll email you them. (and invite you to a gmail account if ya want the space)

EDIT: picking up on what R.Flagg said about dodge jumping up ramps in Rankin; I can never seem to do that.

Posted: **Sat Jul 30, 2005 9:14 pm**

maybe a better sound for the bike???

Posted: **Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:50 am**

Tim wrote:If it's all about blending, why do mods even exist?

To try and put it another way, here's a section from our docs:

ChaosUT2 can perhaps be referred to as 'a mod for those who like the game they bought'. In other words, we make no attempt at a 'total conversion', something that takes possibly the greatest FPS game yet, and turns in into something completely different. That is not our vision.

What we have attempted to do, as always, is to expand the game, bring some nice variety to your play, but to do it in a way, where (hopefully) it won't be so easy to tell where UT2004 ends, and Chaos begins. Our goal is to make the game bigger, deeper, and maybe even a little bit better, all the while appearing as if it came with the original game - right out of the box.

Of course when you get down to all the various details of any weapon/item/feature, you rarely if ever get 100% consensus within the team on exactly how to carry out that philosophy, and that's what we argue/debate about at times, like now.

But the concept itself is a good one, and I feel it's always been one of the strong points of this mod.

Shadowstar wrote:After all, if we make it complicated and difficult to control, nobody will even use the ....

This is a good point, and it applies to most things. One way to avoid making a new weapon/item/feature too complicated is to blend with vanilla, so that it feels natural to the player when he uses it (when applicable of course, as we already covered).

lord_kungai wrote:But I believe that if the CUT bike can be steered like the scorpion (keys for direction of vehicle, mouse for aiming gun) and had swalpa better handling, it would rule!

qft - as they say these days

Loki wrote:I'd just like to point that UT2k4's vehicles are built so that if it doesn't have a turret, it's mouse steered.

Oh I dunno, the Cicada has a turret-ish gun. Seems to me like the 'wheeled vs. flying' rule is still a more accurate way to describe the situation.

Loki wrote:picking up on what R.Flagg said about dodge jumping up ramps in Rankin; I can never seem to do that.

Hehe. I'm no master at it, but I can do it. TBH I've never really cared for all that 'console key-mashing'

, and of course when playing Chaos you have the Belt and the Grapple, making the dodge-jumping stuff less important I guess you could say...,

but still, it's nice to know the whole game, and it's cool to be able to use a little bit of everything when playing. Besides, the grapple is a big sound cue, so especially in a 1on1 if you can dodge-jump up a ramp instead of grapple, at times it can really be to your advantage to do so.

Posted: **Sun Jul 31, 2005 9:09 am**

R.Flagg wrote:
lord_kungai wrote:But I believe that if the CUT bike can be steered like the scorpion (keys for direction of vehicle, mouse for aiming gun) and had swalpa better handling, it would rule!
qft - as they say these days

Say wha...?

Posted: **Thu Aug 04, 2005 5:32 pm**

"Quite F@#$&*% True" is what he means.

Yes both versions will be available with the new release. It will be controlled by a client side option so we can accomidate everyone.

Posted: **Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:59 pm**

I thought it was 'Quoted for Truth', though the meaning remains about the same. Something I had seen on a couple forums (including this one) recently, thought maybe it was a hot new trend I could get in on early.

Too early I suppose.

Posted: **Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:25 am**

Lolz...

Either way, Hopefully we'll be seeing better CUT biker action soon...

Posted: **Fri Aug 05, 2005 2:07 pm**

DOH!!!!! My bad. Just sayin what i thought it ment LOL

Anyway, Yeppers Usable bike is on its way

Posted: **Fri Aug 05, 2005 3:09 pm**

R.Flagg wrote:
Loki wrote:I'd just like to point that UT2k4's vehicles are built so that if it doesn't have a turret, it's mouse steered.
Oh I dunno, the Cicada has a turret-ish gun. Seems to me like the 'wheeled vs. flying' rule is still a more accurate way to describe the situation.

Well, off the top of my head, the raptor, manta and cicada all lack turrets (or in the cicada's case, the pilot lacks one) and the vehicle automatically points itself where the crosshair is. The Hellbender (and TC1200) are exceptions, but neither have a gun, so it's not especially important if the view is locked or not, wheras the vehicles with turet mounted weapons (which is basically everything else) has the camera assigned to the turret.

EDIT: But enough of this turret tosh; whatcha think of the relic idea? I know noe of you commented upon it, but still. :p

Chaotic Dreams

Idea for a new relic (plus a 'Hi' post...)