Chaotic Dreams

Hi all, I am warhead and I am going to be doing some coding work for the chaos mod to help bring it to UT4. I am not sure at this point how much I will do, but to begin with, I will help iron out the hook & belt (which another coder had started) and try my hand creating one of the relics. Should be simple stuff and help me to evaluate the mod and ut4, and then we can go from there. I will tell you all up front I am not fully committed, but any work I do will help you reach your goals. I plan on following the Agile development model and develop one small piece at a time. This way you get easy and complete deliverables, and I keep my commitment manageable. I will commit to one piece at a time, so each piece I do is a negotiation between me and the team.

A little about myself, I have been done mods in ut2003, ut2004, and the most recent and notable was bringing Bombing Run to UT3.
https://forums.epicgames.com/threads/67 ... ht=bombing
I haven't done anything lately so I am looking forward to helping out with chaos and working in ut4.
I am very impressed with the modeling work Mike has done and ut4 is looking like a nice game engine and s/b a blast to work with it.
Chaos also has caught my interest because it seems well designed and yet a simple and fun mod, and Epic has publicly acknowledged it's a good mod.

Work however will probably go slow due to ut's subscription fee and the early state of it's code, very immature game as of now, and per flagg's request, I am cutting and pasting a recent exchange we had to ut forums, which helps to clarify to you where ut4 is at and where I am at.


R.Flagg

Re: Hi

Everything you said makes perfect sense to me.

That doesn't mean it makes me happy since of course I want to play Chaos like, yesterday.

But, it does make sense. What I would hope you would be willing to do (in addition to hanging out with us in IRC), is to sign up onto our forums, and copy/paste this post over there.

It would go a long way to keeping up the spirits of people like Mike (thatscrawnykid) who is doing some really fine modeling. It would show him that we haven't failed, we are just a bit too early to advance.

Thank you for looking into this, and taking the time to explain it clearly to a non-coder like myself.

I hope to be available around 7-ish, but I cannot promise that. My family often eats dinner around that time, and sometimes I don't make it to chat until an hour or so later.

Thanks again Mark.

-Mark


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warhead328


Re: Hi


Done some research into ut4's mod readiness and found out why rob was having so much trouble. Found some of his posts on this forum. It's not only him but even vets like wormbo having all kinds of trouble. So thing is, it's really early yet and ut4 has not good mod support yet. One guy who works for a gaming studio has volunteered to work on the mod support but he has been MIA for 2 whole months now and not a word from him, so that's not good. There seems to be little going right on in general in ut4 programming. Only 9 pages of threads and each thread has not very many posts. When you then take out from that the number of posts pertaining to mod support, it gets even smaller. Basically Epic is hoping someone else will do it, all the "someone else"'s out there are hoping Epic will do it, and so the work proceeds slowly, very slowly. It'll get done eventually, but in the meantime, we should also go slow and do the waiting game. Epic doesn't want to fully vest in the game, and they have made a system for which only professional game studios generally will participate in, but due to their professional interests it's not so feasible for them either (when was the last time someone came to you at your job and asked you to work for them for free and how well did that work out for them). So, yea, the work will proceed, but it's gonna be slow. But hey that's good because we can take it slow too and keep this fun and leisurely.

It's not going to be productive to try developing on a framework which is still being written. The person doing the mod back end hasn't even decided if delegates or class extensions will be used to perform the mod hooks, so a lot is up in the air. rob was having extreme trouble with key binding, and Epic as we speak are working on a mod cooker and config file support (and as far as I know not much else). Currently config and content stuff has to be merge into the core game in order to work (meaning if they didn't change that, our mod would have to ship with the main game, something I know you would not like). That will change eventually and hopefully the mod cooker fixes issues like that.

I can't keep paying for subscriptions every time they update this stuff. and current framework looks like an early mess, so perhaps may be prudent to wait some months to things to mature more before taking a crack at it. Perhaps I should go ahead and get a copy to start learning and access just exactly how ugly it is, but then I would have to play the waiting game again until they come out with something that's actually workable. I def am not interested and keep having to buy this thing, and with current immature stuff they have, that's exactly how it works.

I may go ahead do pickup a starting copy so I can get learning, but then due to immaturity of ut4 will probably need to wait a long time before getting another. This also limits what can be done with the chaos mod. Things which can't be easily done due to bad framework (like getting key binds to work) just have to be tabled until they come out with something. We should complete what we can which is feasible to complete, but when framework issues occur we should not bust our butts trying to work around it but instead wait for the support. Also, it doesn't make sense to write a lot of code which just becomes obsolete when they change the framework, so need to be careful. Slow and careful is the key.

I will plan to be on your IRC at 7pm eastern time tonight. If we can catch each other we can chat it up.

Welcome Warhead.
I'll put more coffee in the pot.

I am surprised and also glad that even though you are not already a Chaos fan, you can spot a quality mod and its potential.
Try the 2K4 mod for size in lots of maps you are familiar with.
Compare the Chaos and UT weapons, and you will quickly see them as (il)logical extensions of the existing armoury.
It is a bit more outrageous than Vanilla UT, but does not feel like you are running a total-mod.

The melee will throw you for a little as it is odd in a PC FPS game, but you quickly find how much more fluid it is, and how timing for defence and attack become a critical skill.
eg. if you have the balls for it, run at an enemy using bullet ammo, and you can defend yourself with the sword, up to the point you remove their head at close-range.
Very satisfying.

The models, weaponry and effects have a dark beauty rather than simply being "scary".
Much more "Hellraiser" than "Saw".

BTW. if you find a vortex launcher, my tip is to throw it as far away as you can manage, then run as fast as you can

I've actually used the vortex before
it's quite a "blast" to use (or should we say, it "sucks" ) and we were required by the server admin to have custom binding messages to warn other team members when we were about to launch it
I used it in an invasion game and I am quite sure they got it from you all.
Like I said, I've seen bits and pieces of chaos around the internet.
No, it didn't take me long at all to evaluate Chaos and see the innovation, quality, and creativity of the mod.
My initial response to flagg was actually "no", and the mod started to get under my skin as I realized the opportunity being offered to me.
I must say that Mike's fine work really helped to sway me, so kudos to him.
I'm glad to be here and this s/b fun.
Chaos and me will get along just fine.
I am an old school fragger from ut2003 and I played Bombing Run a lot (and I mean, a lot...) so that means I love crazy fast paced star wars style action and jumping around.
We had wall dodge jumping raised to a whole new level.
I could shoot the ball and can jump across the map using a shield boosted wall jump and follow the ball and meet it at the other end and score.
Unfortunately the new ut isn't very much like this, it wants to keep your feet on the ground so ut4 desperately needs some Chaos
I'm into it.

Groovy, team players are definitely more understanding of the whole package and weapon strategy (attack/defence).
Distribution of the relics in a team to the most suitable players, or ditching the one you have in favour of another that matches your need, can make or break a match.

Spotting someone with a relic, also changes how you deal with them (or if). Relic effects should be as spotable as the pickups them selves.
Melee only matches with relics and the Runestorm Ballistics blood mutator, are a very satisfying combo.
People really despise you for carrying the vengeance mutator upon cutting off your head.
*cue evil laugh!*

As you have already noticed, ChaosUT and derivatives have turned-up in on form or another in each engine since the GOTY UT99.
It is always nice to see bits and bobs on various servers, and it goes to show how integral many people feel it is to UT, even though they may not be aware of it's origin.

I have 2004 running again and am reliving the horror of the tiny squeaky voices of doom, and the paranoia you get when a red lens-flare tells you that somewhere a rifle scope is pointing right at your head.
The OTT power of Chaos is always tempered nicely.
eg. The Chaos sniper rifle (still my all time fave rifle) may well have rocket-propelled insta-gib ammo (like a rail-gun), but the laser gives you away, and the smoke obscures your view temporarily. Oh and it really blows your cover, so you should really move.
The other ammo (and why it is my fave) is bouncing bullets (think Sci-Fi auto-rifle in the Time-Spliters Play Station game).
If I hosted a camping sniper server, this would be my primary.
As long as you know where someone is camping, and have some pool or snooker skills, you can put your bullet where you need it.

One warning about the rifle though. Just like the vortex launcher, the occasional .... umm... "home-goals" are inevitable
All part of the Chaos but sometimes you will miss the person directly opposite you against a surface, and depending on how good your aim was....
You shoot yourself smack in the face
(watch out for window ledges)
Chaos is loaded with face-palm moments, but it should always be funny and occasional enough not to be annoying.

In the IRC we have discussed a few ideas on making selected pickups and ammo more interactive or combinable to a small degree.
Minor logic sequences to take advantage of certain weaponry or what ammo pack you are looking at, so not things that can be done at any time and become a game changer.
eg. An edge that will let you dominate that one battle entirely, but not the whole war.
Chaos has aspects that at first may seem random, but it is a many-layered thing where certain parts relate to others.
Leaving those little things for the players to discover adds a lot more value, as no matter how long you play it there will always be another trick you can learn.

I know I would go much further than the Chaos devs, as I favour an even more heightened level of crazy in UT.
Me, I would stick Proxies on spider-mines so I could camera-guide them and climb over stuff.
I have a sneaky tactic with the Chaos proxy in UT99
In UT99 I use the old "Volatile ammo" mutator, and when I pickup an ammo pack if I have time and proxies, I will place one exactly where the ammo spawns.
This ammo is now guarded and property of my team. If an enemy tries to collect it, the proxy detonates and triggers the contents of the box.
In all versions you can just mark your territory in a more smug way, by sticking one clearly on a wall over some ammo or a weapon.
All the enemy can do is destroy it or leave it.
As you see, a tactical game change, but not a "game-changer".

Chaos is the arena to exercise all that stuff deemed too extreme for UT.
We are going to see a lot of industrial an sci-fi maps, so hopefully the more fantasy oriented mappers will be interested in depicting hellish arenas of combat.
The existing Chaos maps show the overall theme and context much better, but it is sort of "cuber-medieval".
Think of Stargate episodes where a medieval culture is dominated by an alien or futuristic technology
I see the realm of Chaos as the hell of UT, or a parallel universe to UT where the difference is;
In UT, competitors choose and train to join the tournament (UT200x cinematics showed the tourney theme very well), but in the Chaos Tournament, you are chosen to entertain the dark lords of Chaos.
This attitude is shown best in the Duel game mode, where at the end of the match if nobody is the winner/survivor the Chaos lords kill everyone left alive, with total disgust at your poor show.
The winners in the Chaos realm create the dark army required to take the Liandri trophy from this realm.

In the realm of Chaos there is no such thing as "a draw".
You will never hear echo through the great halls of Chaos... "Group hug everyone, we are all winners"

Welcome to the team warhead! I'm glad you found my work to your liking. We are all looking forward to working with you on this project.

Very glad to have mr warhead. Been reading that dev thread, and 'Wow!'. Takes a certain kind of dedication to work your way through all those issues. Thanks also to Robert for getting us started.

Welcome Mr. Warhead, and please remember to just say the word if you need anything.

Hey warhead....great to have you man!