The "Dagger Whorage" needs to stop...

[SparticusManWhorius]

Alright, first let me say that Chaos UT is a DAMN good mod. Melee duels are probably one of the most enjoyable things I've had in any UT mod yet, and I play at least an hour a day. I consider it the best part of Chaos UT. Sure it needs polish, (pick ups removed, collision detection, etc) but even now I could play it for a long time.

It's simply hella fun.

However, one thing is getting on my nerves, and I'm not along on this after playing on the servers the last few days. While weapons still need to be balanced a tad, one weapon stands way above the others in the fact that it is simple out of whack.

The daggers.

This weapon is single handedly the most imbalanced weapon of the game. About half the players refuse to even touch them because of this reason, the others seem to stick only too them, refusing to even try another weapon for obvious reasons. These players literally can rack up kills easily, and even take out those who are CLEARLY superior.

Why are daggers so imbalanced? A couple observations and reasons.

-Their range is greater than any other weapon. Newbies of course claim that they are the shortest range (the katana is), but in fact they cover more area than any other weapon in the game due to the fact that they attack in multiple directions at once, or cover both top and bottom hit boxes. It is easy to hit your target compared to a TRUE short range weapon like the katana.

-Their extention period is longer than most weapons, which leads to a large area of possible damage covered, as well as repeated hit checks. This leads to HIGH damage, with very little effort.

-Their speed. If they don't hit the first time, they quickly attack a second time. Now, there is no problem with a dagger being fast, as they should be. But if you are going to have them attacking at the speed that they are, then give daggers some sort of sacrifice for their speed.

-They are very strong defence weapons. Not only do they attack a thick range in front, but they can attack and block both sides at once as well. Where most weapons you can go around one side and hit, this isn't possible with daggers. Their two blades protect a huge area around the player.

These problems lead to the same frustration that a player feels against the classic "newb in a corner with an AWP" on other famous mods like counter-strike. Where one strongly imbalanced factor can seriously hamper the fun of a great deal of work. Now I've used daggers myself, so I'm not claiming this from just sight, also experience. I've often proved to other players about daggers by switching to them, killing every person (even getting a double kill from daggers extended from both sides). They proceed to try them out and clearly note the problems I listed as well.

How would I recomend balancing the daggers? I'm sure the developers can find quick solutions considering they made this mod themselves, however here are a few thoughts off the top of my head. Keep in mind these are all SEPERATE, ideas for fixes, not a combination.

-Dagger extention period greatly reduced. Daggers shouldn't be allowed to be extended to register mass amounts of damage for so long. They are a stab and retract weapon.

-Damage reduction. Plain and simple.

-Remove one of the daggers. If you want to have a weapon like this, you don't get the great range coverage then.

Thanks for reading, and I truely hope some consideration is taken in to account about the daggers. I look forward to other polishes to this great part of this very well done mod.

Thanks.

-Sparticus Man Whorious

[FireFly]

I can understand what you're saying, but I disagree. While their forward attack, especially the lunge is extremely effective, their sideways attack is not very potent at all. All the dagger users I've seen just end up repeatedly trying to lunge at the player. Which can be easily countered by simply getting out of the way!

I see daggers as being relatively easy to learn, and to own with, but hard to master.

[Zachariah]

Agreed I don't see such unbalances either. Im not going to say that the Melee weapons are completely and perfectly balanced. But I believe they are at least reasonably so, I for one think that you're exaggerating to an extent.

[Shadowstar]

I've never had any trouble fighting a dagger user. Like any of the other weapons, it has weaknesses. Once you are familiar with those weaknesses, you can easily beat the average dagger user. Now some players are fairly skilled with the daggers, and that's different. They can be a challenge, but then, that's true of any weapon.

[Kaze]

I have some problems with the daggers, but I don't know if I would consider them totally unbalanced like say for instance the axe.

Also the daggers kill anything in heavy stance. The backwards stab can be used to move back then rush forward stabbing someone straight on racking up massive damage and killing in one hit usually. Also the side attack can be used to steer into your opponent and hit them from the side because the animation lasts so long.

The hit checks thing is true though. Most weapons slash vertically or stab that retract allowing for possibly one or two hit checks and most of the time minor damage. Daggers remain inside the enemy player model for a longer time racking up massive damage every time the check is made to see if the weapon is hitting another weapon or not.

Not so much a daggers issue as it is a general gameplay issue because I have been killed in freakish ways with other weapons. Like a weapon attack rebounding off a parry and landing in my model resulting in my instant death.

[Shadowstar]

Daggers have reduced damage-per-trace to make up for thier tendency to generate more hits. You also have to consider that there are two of them, and each one does damage. The daggers do very little damage with a glancing blow, so you almost need to get a sustained hit (a stab) to do any damage, but if you do, you'll do alot of damage. This isn't entirely unrealistic, though you have to consider that we are also limited by the engine, which does not natively support melee combat.

[SparticusManWhorius]

The biggest issue I believe with daggers of the above listed is the time that the daggers stay extended, and how damage is registered repeatedly due to this "double" extention.

Kaze gave some great examples of this in his post. These problems do exist in other weapons and turn up in other areas, but in daggers, they are almost built into the weapon itself.

I'm sorry, but daggers are "the most" imbalanced weapon of the bunch. They do need a bit of tweeking. I'm not saying they RUIN the game or anything, but of the weapons it gets tiring to see someone who is average, switch to daggers then kill three people in a row in a couple easy stabs.

Of course any player can become skilled with a certain weapon. That point is known by everyone, however it is avoiding the issue that there is the possibility that certain weapons can be much easier to use, and far more effective than others at the same time. That is where the problem lies.

The next time your team is tweaking duel, and balancing weapons; please look at daggers a bit closer, that is all I ask really.

[FireFly]

But that's simply the nature of the weapon. Their frontal attack will always have to be powerful to make up for their ineffective side attacks. I think with skilled opponants playing the daggers are perfectly balanced, it's just a problem when you're playing with people who can't deal with the hugely damaging frontal attacks.

[bl00ds33ker]

I think the daggers are not imbalanced.
Its true, that they do a ALOT damage on frontal attacks, espacially against untrained opponents with a katana or a sword,
but when u have to fight against someone using the mace or the double axe pretty well its hard to hit or kill them so I think the daggers are only really powerful against those "newbes".

[SparticusManWhorius]

Daggers are no means an "effective weapon against newbies" just because they do excessive damage.

Also, their side attacks are extended just as far out as the frontal attacks. By no means do they have weak side attacks. In fact both front and side attacks for daggers are powerful. They of course have no back attack, but no weapon really does. (unless you count the pull back of some of the heavier weapons and time it well lol)

[bl00ds33ker]

They are, because most "Newbies" dont know how powerful these little cute dagger are, so they run straight into them...
If you know how to handle a dagger user, it should be no problem to take him out.

[ZCaliber]

Well, I prefer the Katana and Mace myself.

Trying different weapons there seems to be 3 weapons that are pretty easy to win with: Axe, War Hammer, Daggers.

I'm not saying that all three of these are unbalanced, in fact, I haven't used the Warhammer or Axe that much (I just hear people whine about 'em being n00b weapons... Thus I shy away from them)

All I knows is that when I use Daggers, I suddenly start killing things much easier than with the Katana or Mace. =\

[SparticusManWhorius]

Mace can be pretty damn hard to use sometimes, even though it is similar to the axe, but it doesn't have quite the same swing. Anyone who can win over and over with a mace has some respect from me.

Katana can be quite good, but you have to learn how to use it, and that can be quite hard. Despite the appearance of it being a newb weapon when idiots spam heavy attacks and get lucky. (medium and light are the best).

Yes, there are other weapons that are unbalanced, but from what I have seen, daggers are the weapon in most need of a kick down due to the problems I and others listed above.

[Shadowstar]

That's funny, whenever Ive played online, everyone says the bastard sword is massively overpowered, not the daggers or axe or anything else...

I think it is all a matter of perspective.

[SparticusManWhorius]

Wow, where do you play online? I've NEVER heard anyone say the bastard sword is overpowered. Everyone always jokes about it sucking or being very average.