The "Dagger Whorage" needs to stop...

Melekai · Post by **Melekai** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:51 pm

me and my mate just had a 3 hour game with bots... we loved it!!!!!!!!!!!

the daggers are easy to kill with, but in a way its kinda realistic too duncha think?. im hoping team chaos use the same system to bring in a lot more weapons..

i think that its good to have a choice.. some weapons are better used by some people... slow the game down a tad and its not so bad... (i react slwoly so i need the slow down)...

i DO wish you guys would let us use theese weapons in invasion and with other mods. a simple. MELEE mutator that gives you the weapons to play around with ?. oh and TEAM DEATHMATCH

thats what we miss, team Melle Deathmatch and chaos invasion.

Zachariah · Post by **Zachariah** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:57 pm

Melee cannot be so easily be brought to non chaos gametypes. We woulda hada Melee mut long ago had this not been the case. The incompatability stems from Melee Replacing some Pawns IIRC.

SparticusManWhorius · Tue Jun 22, 2004 12:39 am

Stargazer, actually I don't think realism has anything to do with weapon balance in this mod or any game for that fact. If this were realistic it would be not even the same thing that it is.

Realism and games, (even those based AROUND realism) don't mix.

Post by **Shadowstar** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 1:24 am

I just jump on whatever server has the best ping for me. I go by Argon in the game, appearing as [ArL]Argon. Give me a nod sometime if you see me online and I'll be more than happy to show you how many ways you can beat down a dagger whore with the classic chaos bastard sword.

dark_rusty · Post by **dark_rusty** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 7:06 am

SparticusManWhorius wrote:-Their range is greater than any other weapon. Newbies of course claim that they are the shortest range (the katana is), but in fact they cover more area than any other weapon in the game due to the fact that they attack in multiple directions at once, or cover both top and bottom hit boxes. It is easy to hit your target compared to a TRUE short range weapon like the katana.

the area a weapon covers is not a measure of wether it is a short,long or intermediate range weapon, rather the distance you can hit your opponent from with it. the daggers' strength is in its combination of short range & what you referred to as range but can be better described as coverage. an enemy using daggers is hard to attack becuase of fast retaliation by short weapons close to the body, & due to the same reason they can come right at you & avoiding them is impossible when they get so close to attack, making them the aggressive players dream.

Maybe just maybe, & in no way is anything implied by this, getting aggressive & going right for a player with daggers is not what I call for, most important is using timing, & maybe a longer weapon. I believe the speed of the katana's strafe attacks are the best remedy for those who may be one day placed under the new column & designation of Dagger-whores.

Those people who use the daggers quite often(lets face it, there is a fair few) are drawn to the obvious & simple conclusion that they are the best weapon, but less experienced players will simple see it that way becuase of their coverage, play your cards right & your bound to hit your opponent, & everybody starts out against bots, they come straight at you in a straight line, they're lining themselves on the chopping board (no pun intended). Less Experienced (who you so predictably call newbies) are seeing the simple fact, they are best with the daggers, so they use it.

In the end, from what i see, it seems that which weapon appears to be unbalanced is entirely due to the players competing, in majority of cases, alot of online players (& this is only an assumtion) are quite aggressive & ready to get in there, & do some damage, thus the fact the daggers, & to an extent the katana become prominate, play on servers where more subdued players hang around & you may find that the axe, mace or basterd sword can come across as the better weapon.

jb · Post by jb » Tue Jun 22, 2004 12:38 pm

Just as an FYI I have a new post: http://forums.chaoticdreams.org/viewtopic.php?t=3664

Were we have layed out the melee weapon var properties. Maybe we can all look over this list to find some areas that need to be tweaked?

Kaboodles · Post by **Kaboodles** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 4:26 pm

My only gripe about the BS and Templar is that they don't really have much variation in attacks. Same attacks, only slower on heavy and faster on light stance.

Flak · Post by **Flak** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:40 am

I have no problem with any of the melee weapons, I think they're all great!

LoQtUS · Post by **LoQtUS** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 11:41 am

Kaboodles_The_Assassin wrote:My only gripe about the BS and Templar is that they don't really have much variation in attacks. Same attacks, only slower on heavy and faster on light stance.

Actualy, the slower movement from the BS on the heavy stance is an illusion. The animations play at exactly the same speed, Hence the movements are exactly the same.

As for all of this dagger whoring ( really not fond of that term)stuff, Its not possable for the daggers to have a longer reach then anyother weapon. Trust me. I did the scaling on the weapons. The Daggers are exactly 1/2 the length of the BS. The 3 swords are extreemly close to eachother in length. The long axe is a little longer then the BS, and the WarHammer is a little shorter then the BS. THe Mace is also a bit shorter, and The Double Axe Is approxamitly the length of the BS.

General_Sun · Post by **General_Sun** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 1:58 am

Well I'm a mace user myself and yes I use it well... (as many ppl here could tell)

However, the thing with maces is that it is amazingly short ranged. I think it's even shorter than the katana... The mace like the dagger has a powerful frontal attack but unlike the dagger, is hard to hit with the frontal attack. Often, I stand right next to an afk player and hit them dead on with a frontal but missed! The dagger however is impossible to miss dead front, which is why it's slightly imbalanced. With this ease of hitting dead center, the dagger should have its frontal damage slightly tweaked.

The katana also has massice frontal damage but that is justifiable because it's side attack is almost non existant, being way too short to use...

KRoZ · Post by **KRoZ** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:16 am

General, from what I've noticed first hand from you and others crushing me repeatedly with the mace, is that the maces range isn't terribly short. Then there's the maces sweeping side attacks that people seem to like using that can cover an entire 180 degree arc in front of the user give or take. Even if the attacks were lacking in range, I think the sweeping motion can more than make up for that.

Anyway, I'm just bitter cause of the maces innate ability to kill me dead, Dispite how cheap the daggers I swing about are claimed to be.

Kaze · Post by **Kaze** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 8:14 pm

Any weapon that kills me is cheap noob crap even if its the same weapon I'm using!

Kaboodles · Post by **Kaboodles** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 8:17 pm

Any weapon that kills me is cheap noob crap even if its the same weapon I'm using!

TKATK · Post by **TKATK** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 9:36 pm

Kaboodles_The_Assassin wrote:
Any weapon that kills me is cheap noob crap even if its the same weapon I'm using!

hey,you used the cheap weapon too,the one that you can kill with

Code-Killer · Post by **Code-Killer** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 10:52 pm

heh, so many people whine how "X weapon is cheap and for noobs"
I think they're pretty balanced, you just have to know how to deal with their attacks. Look at me, I used to hate the axe, because of it's ridiculous range. I figured out that it swings pretty slow,so now I wait for the swing, and then proceed to bash their head with a mace

No weapon is cheap in my eyes, you just plain suck at fighting those players!

all the weapons have flaws, you just have to exploit them better.