Vengeance Damage?

[R.Flagg]

I'm curious to hear some feedback from folks who have used this relic on med. to small maps. Personally, I feel that having a redeemer-type item available this easily throws us out of balance.

IMO, there is a reason the redeemer is considered a superweapon, and has such limitations as a 2 min respawn; you have to select it like a weapon, you have to live to use it, and it can even be shot down.

None of those apply to our current redeemer-ish vengeance. You can get it very often, you don't have to select it like a weapon, and you don't even have to live to use it.

Then, add to that the fact that it doesn't kill teammates, and I can think of at least one easy way for a team to abuse the heck out of it in CTF (think Vengeance-train flag-runs ). Or how about inONS? Clearing a node area of all enemy players in a flash, while leaving all teammates unharmed. How many more can you think of?

Have you tried it in DM matches of 2 to 4 players in maps like 1on1 Albatross, or ChaosDM1 for example?

Thoughts?

[Kaboodles]

Having Vengeance kill friendlies just doesn't make sense. Why would you want to take revenge on your allies?

My solution to this would be to change its effect altogether. I think it should inflict some of the damage back to whoever injures the relic-holder, like a kind of reverse Vampire relic. You could have a neat evil skull projectile home in on the attacker.

This could lead to some very interesting tactics against superweapons and vehicles...

[R.Flagg]

Having Vengeance kill friendlies just doesn't make sense.

Balance? I would encourage you to think about that some more. I'm afraid it's heavily abusable, and unbalanced, as it is now.

Why would you want to take revenge on your allies?

I didn't say you should want to. But a player should have to think twice before using it.

[The_0men]

hmmmmm what if a player shoots the green light be4 it goes off to postpone the explosion or stop it altogether, or going to what assassin said about the skull homing in on the attacker he could be able to shoot it out, or mabe the killer explods instead.....

What do u mean clear the node area? it wouldnt no1 gets right next to each other and the blast isnt that big, i think its cool the way it is.

Easy to find?PFFFF! i was playing in bot mode for hours and only seen vengance once the whole time, the blast wasnt that bit i think it should be bigger!>)

[R.Flagg]

What do u mean clear the node area? it wouldnt no1 gets right next to each other

Easily done. I've already done it many times. And they most certainly do not have to be standing next to each other.

Easy to find?PFFFF! i was playing in bot mode for hours and only seen vengance once the whole time, the blast wasnt that bit i think it should be bigger!>)

Again, it's not as overwhelming in large maps. But even so, I find it hard to believe you played for hours on a med to small map, and only saw it once. Unless of course you have a bug, or were playing Duel.

Care to name the map? Because I see it a lot more than once an hour even when playing maps like ONS-Mothership. You must be in one big-arsed map.

[Rythmix]

the blast isnt that big

LOL?! not that big? its extremely enormous, especially in open spaces where there are no walls to duck behind quickly, even if you are out of the range of the blast effects, the damage radius is waaaay to big and takes like 15-30 damage along the outskirts of the radius.. in fact from the point of killing the relic holder to the point where it goes boom, on a wide open map, using Dodge-jumps and grapple pulls, it is still impossible to get away from at least some damage, i think that grace period either needs to be a second longer and a definite reduction in radius of the damage. IMHO of course.

[Mick]

On most small to medium maps vengance isn't too bad, as you can hide behind walls and take zero damage quite alot of the time, although it is a little overpowered. Another thing I must say is don't get rid of the explosion! It's really good, especially how the smoke stays for a while after the explosion.

[R.Flagg]

Well Mick, the issue there is that the visual should match the actual. So first one must decide what a common item like a relic shoud do (as compared to a limited and restricted superweapon like a redeemer does), and then attempt to 'match' the visual to the actual.

But even if this was an acceptable 'actual' damage radius and amounts, I still have issues with the visual. Again, if you look at maps like ChaosDM1, where it's common to have a few of these go off in one minute(!!), you cannot see the level anymore.

Not to mention the fact that I have a decent rig nowadays, and still I'm losing anywhere from 30 to 70 fps when just one goes off.

Compare it to the availability and 'ease of use' of the redeemer, compare it to the availability and 'ease of use' of the Kamikaze, and then compare the damage each one does.

[Rythmix]

I must say, the smoke effects afterwards are awesome, imo, a bit thick, but as long as the smoke clears before another goes off, it gives a realistic view of what would happen after a bomb went off, smoke everywhere and trying to continue the fight. I've never seen smoke that real and that dense in any other game or mod Ive ever played and i like it a whole lot

[jb]

I'm curious to hear some feedback from folks who have used this relic on med. to small maps. Personally, I feel that having a redeemer-type item available this easily throws us out of balance.

This is my fault for not explaining it more clearly. The only thing Redeemer-ish this shares is the Damage Model:

The Redeemer uses expaning waves of damage that are kicked off every X seconds. The first wave starts at 0.5 seconds the redeemer explodes (no delay). Then each wave states approx 0.2 seconds later. There are 6 of these waves. Each wave does 250 hp of damage. Each wave has a larger area of effect. The radius of effect at a maximum is 2000 game units and it nocks players back with 20,000 N of force each wave.

The Vengence is simular. The first wave is delayed 2.0 seconds. Then each wave is 0.25 seconds apart. There are only 5 waves with the vengence with each wave having a larger area of effect. Each wave does 80 hp of Damage. The maximum area of effect is the same, 2000 game units but its force is only 10,000 N.

If you wanted to run the numbers then the redeemer on a target that did not move out of center would give you 1,500 hp of damage in 1.5 seconds (6 waves, 250 hp each wave, with 0.5 seconds then 5 more waves at 0.2 seconds apart). While the Vengence will do 400 hps but takes 3.0 seconds (5 waves, 80 hp each wave, with 2.0 second delay before the first wave then 5 waves at 0.25 intervals).

So to get the same killing power (damage = hp/second) you would need more then 6 vengence relics going off at the same time at the same location.

The other major difference is you do have to Die to get the Vengence to go off and you have no controll where it will go off at when it does (like if you get railed in mid air. The damage will happen at the point of death, mid air, and not where your body lands).

IMO, there is a reason the redeemer is considered a superweapon, and has such limitations as a 2 min respawn; you have to select it like a weapon, you have to live to use it, and it can even be shot down.

None of those apply to our current redeemer-ish vengeance. You can get it very often, you don't have to select it like a weapon, and you don't even have to live to use it.

Oh I agree it could be tweaked down some what. But I just wanted to point out that while it does share some simular ideas as a redeemer its still not the same boat and it has some draw backs to help balance it as well. I was thinking if we can make the Vengence a bit rarer relic or after its dropped, hid it right away for say 30 seconds. We also can ditch the current damage model and make it more like an normal explosion. Have it do a lot of damage in one one shot with out any delay.

Then, add to that the fact that it doesn't kill teammates, and I can think of at least one easy way for a team to abuse the heck out of it in CTF (think Vengeance-train flag-runs ). Or how about inONS? Clearing a node area of all enemy players in a flash, while leaving all teammates unharmed. How many more can you think of?

Granted but the oppsite effect could happen just as easily, one person taking out his entire team or the people close to him if they respawn (say on assult when the reenforments respawn in stages) and the Vengence relic is right near the spawn? How about some idiot graping it runing right up to the flag carriers and going boom? The sad truth is that people will always find a way to abuse what ever system we have in place. Thats why I was thinking that after the vengence goes off the relic should not be dropped, but it should be respawned at a new location, then hidden for 30 seconds before it shows up to players and can be picked up. This would stop at vengence train run for example....

[Shadowstar]

Jb, I agree that the venge relic should not drop. And it should have a fairly high respawn time and be somewhat rare. I don't think we can really afford to start tweaking the damage and radius until we have the drop behaviors and rarity sorted out. It's like with any superweapon, getting it right takes time and alot of tweaking. The last thing to change about it should be the visual, because the visual doesn't affect gameplay, but must match the gameplay effect, and can't do that if it is created or tweaked before the gameplay effect.

[TKATK]

Imo no relic should be dropped,but thats just me

a way to further balance Veng could be by
1.Blast radius made smaller if the map is small in size(is it possible?)
2.No damage to nodes
3.A lil bit more time till the explosion

[R.Flagg]

I'm curious to hear some feedback from folks who have used this relic on med. to small maps. Personally, I feel that having a redeemer-type item available this easily throws us out of balance.

This is my fault for not explaining it more clearly. The only thing Redeemer-ish this shares is the Damage Model:

No, not really. I wasn't basing any of this off of anyone's description, or listing of numbers. It's based off of my playing with the item. One doesn't need any 'help' in comparing this to a redeemer.

The Vengence is simular.

<snip>

So to get the same killing power (damage = hp/second) you would need more then 6 vengence relics going off at the same time at the same location.

This is nice on paper, but it really doesn't mean much in an actual game. I don't think anyone is going to say the vengeance is 6 times "less" than a redeemer, no matter how you arrange the numbers.

There is no player with that much hit points in the game. All that matters is what it does to the players, not what "extra" is out there.

So....

There are only 5 waves with the vengence with each wave having a larger area of effect. Each wave does 80 hp of Damage. The maximum area of effect is the same, 2000 game units

...is the part that matters. 5 ever-increasing waves that do minimum of 80 hp's each.

The other major difference is you do have to Die to get the Vengence to go off and you have no controll where it will go off at when it does (like if you get railed in mid air. The damage will happen at the point of death, mid air, and not where your body lands).

Well, in a way, you are making my point. "Have to die" ?? What that actually means is that you don't have to do anything, you are free to fight your opponents, and if you should die, you get this bonus redeemer-ish explosion. No planning needed, no skill, no timing, no effort. Just pick it up w/o leaving your path many times, and continue to fight. There is no drawback (not currently).

Yet with a redeemer, you must select it, shoot it, and it cannot be shot down, and so on. "Have to die" is not a drawback at all.

(not to mention many of us who play team games like CTF or ONS have Suicide bound to a key. Vengeance at will.

Oh I agree it could be tweaked down some what.

Ok. That's a start.

But I just wanted to point out that while it does share some simular ideas as a redeemer its still not the same boat and it has some draw backs to help balance it as well.

What are the drawbacks exactly?

I was thinking if we can make the Vengence a bit rarer relic

Yes, "rare relics" is an idea I've been promoting all along. I'm for that.

or after its dropped, hid it right away for say 30 seconds.

Might not be a bad idea. So long as it comes back right where it was dropped. Moving it to a new 'random' location in the map would not be as fair. One player or team could wind up getting it over and over. But the reward for taking out the guy shuld be to take his relic.

We also can ditch the current damage model and make it more like an normal explosion. Have it do a lot of damage in one one shot with out any delay.

I would prefer something a bit more original (not that anything really is anymore). Something along the lines of the Pandora's box opening, and a bunch of screaming/flaming skulls come flying out, in search of victims. If one get's you, you're dead. But rather than a solid 'wall' of death, it would be some dying by these flying ghouls, while others stood right next to them and watched the carnage. Of course still only balanced if it does not respect FF.

Granted but the oppsite effect could happen just as easily, one person taking out his entire team or the people close to him if they respawn (say on assult when the reenforments respawn in stages) and the Vengence relic is right near the spawn? How about some idiot graping it runing right up to the flag carriers and going boom? The sad truth is that people will always find a way to abuse what ever system we have in place.

We cannot totally 'code' llama's out of the game. Nor should we sacrifice quality for the rare llama. At some point, players and admins need to take action.

We can certainly try to make "acts of llama" less rewarding though, but in this case that would mean damaging teammates as well. It is much more abusable by llamas as it is now, then if it damaged teammates.

There should be a price to pay, for something so powerful. This is nothing dif than a good map maker making the DA hard to get to, or the class10's, and so on. If you want the big guns, you gotta take a risk. There is no risk with current vengeance.

Thats why I was thinking that after the vengence goes off the relic should not be dropped, but it should be respawned at a new location, then hidden for 30 seconds before it shows up to players and can be picked up. This would stop at vengence train run for example....

Yes, it would, but as I mentioned, taking it to a new location presents it's own 'imbalance' issues.

[Shadowstar]

It is much more abusable by llamas as it is now, then if it damaged teammates.

I have noticed you keep saying this, yet never provide any proof or explanation as to why you think so. I simply cannot fathom how allowing people to take revenge on thier teammates is in any way balanced. It is totally illogical. I don't think I'm the only one. The only case where I can see this as logical is if the server allows friendly fire damage. Then it makes sense, but otherwise, it should follow the ff rules like any other weapon. Is this wrong?

Secondly, if we're going to change the damage model, we should change it to the one I suggested about a week ago in the beta forum. We should at least give it a try. I think it would work much better than the current system, especially if we make the damage factor in shields.

There should be a price to pay, for something so powerful. This is nothing dif than a good map maker making the DA hard to get to, or the class10's, and so on. If you want the big guns, you gotta take a risk. There is no risk with current vengeance.

We could give it a drawback, maybe venge could slow down the player that has it a bit, allowing other players to get away and kill them from a safe distance. This would make it more difficult for the player to use the relic as a weapon. They would have to get the element of surprise, as thier potential victims could outrun them before they die. Or, we could cause the player to lose a frag when they die with vengeance. This way, they would need to kill at least one person with it to offset the score loss.

[jb]

This is nice on paper, but it really doesn't mean much in an actual game. I don't think anyone is going to say the vengeance is 6 times "less" than a redeemer, no matter how you arrange the numbers.

There is no player with that much hit points in the game. All that matters is what it does to the players, not what "extra" is out there.

Sorry good sir but the point that I was trying to make is that the redeemer is a much more effective and powerful killing machine. And while people may relate the Vegenace to the redeemer they are different in almost every area.

...is the part that matters. 5 ever-increasing waves that do minimum of 80 hp's each.

I think the issue here is the delay. If there was one big damage done at the time of death, then there would not be a need for damaging waves.

Well, in a way, you are making my point. "Have to die" ?? What that actually means is that you don't have to do anything, you are free to fight your opponents, and if you should die, you get this bonus redeemer-ish explosion. No planning needed, no skill, no timing, no effort. Just pick it up w/o leaving your path many times, and continue to fight. There is no drawback (not currently).

Thats not true. Dying is a big drawback in the DM gametype for example. I dont know how many DM games I have lost by one or two frags as every death is important. Even in CTF or these other games, dying can force you to respawn and thus remove your effectiveness from a game for enough time to tip the balance. Plus you have to be at some distance and in the line of sight. I have been playing a lot on line lately I have been able to avoid most of the damage from many of these vegance blasts. You have a whole two seconds to get away and in some maps thats easy to do. Others its very hard agreed. Also killing your enemys when you see the skulls from a distance really helps. Also your not going to get a kill automatically with the vengance where as if a redeemer goes off near someone your pretty much sured of a kill as its much harder to get away from a reedmer blast. So while you have more draw backs with the redeemer you also have some with the vengence.

Might not be a bad idea. So long as it comes back right where it was dropped. Moving it to a new 'random' location in the map would not be as fair. One player or team could wind up getting it over and over. But the reward for taking out the guy shuld be to take his relic.

But that could lead to abuse and or spammy-ness which is what I though we wanted to avoid? Its better to move it to a true random location and hide it for 30 to 60 seconds to give everyone a fair chance.

We cannot totally 'code' llama's out of the game. Nor should we sacrifice quality for the rare llama. At some point, players and admins need to take action.

We can certainly try to make "acts of llama" less rewarding though, but in this case that would mean damaging teammates as well. It is much more abusable by llamas as it is now, then if it damaged teammates.

I have been playing games on-line since QuakeWorld. And I have had many many games ruined by the Rare Llama. If we can do something to limit them, then we should as server admins are not always around.

There should be a price to pay, for something so powerful. This is nothing dif than a good map maker making the DA hard to get to, or the class10's, and so on. If you want the big guns, you gotta take a risk. There is no risk with current vengeance.

Well indirectly there is. If your using the Vengence, then your not using the other relics that could be helping you more.