Vengeance Damage?

[General_Sun]

Ohhh this is the idea de besta.

If another player picks up the relic after the dude dies, no boom.

[Zachariah]

Imo no relic should be dropped,but thats just me

I agree there. it would help alot to just have the relic go back into rotation, maybe with a short delay as well.

[Corvus|CL]

The best answer for a Relic of Vengeance in old UT was the Relic of Redemption: When you were going to die, you were teleported away...

[R.Flagg]

I have noticed you keep saying this, yet never provide any proof or explanation as to why you think so.

Yes, I have.

And I've even explained at least one example, and hinted at others (ie: the CTF Veng-train flag-run). But more so, I've encouraged others to see it for themselves.

(BTW- you are aware aren't you, that this would not be the 1st Chaos weapon to work that way, right? Not even the 2nd. Nothing new being proposed here. Just better.)

And while people may relate the Vegenace to the redeemer they are different in almost every area.

Yes, the redeemer has limitations and restrictions which make it more 'balanced'.

Thats not true. Dying is a big drawback in the DM gametype for example. I dont know how many DM games I have lost by one or two frags as every death is important.

Totally misunderstanding my point. Of course dying = bad.

So while you have more draw backs with the redeemer you also have some with the vengence.

I haven't heard one yet.

But that could lead to abuse and or spammy-ness which is what I though we wanted to avoid? Its better to move it to a true random location and hide it for 30 to 60 seconds to give everyone a fair chance.

No. "Fair" would mean dropping it where it is. "Unfair" would be having it respawn somewhere else, perhaps even back in the guys base that you just killed, so he can bring it at you again, and again, and again....., which is what "random" would mean many times.

I have been playing games on-line since QuakeWorld. And I have had many many games ruined by the Rare Llama. If we can do something to limit them, then we should as server admins are not always around.

Which is exactly why I want to bring some balance to this relic.

Well indirectly there is. If your using the Vengence, then your not using the other relics that could be helping you more.

Sorry, I don't see that as logical at all. That's like saying a drawback to the rocket launcher is that it's not a redeemer.

[jb]

Yes, the redeemer has limitations and restrictions which make it more 'balanced'.

Well of course good sir. But as I have shown the Deemer' does a whole lot more damage and its a more effective killing machine then the vengence is. Thus the deemer has to have more limits or restrictions. Not saying the Vengence does not need any or more restrictions/limits just not in the same amount.

I haven't heard one yet.

Errrm you just said that dying was bad and since you need to die to get it to go off...well..yea its a restriction of getting the vengence to work. Not like you can just activate it with out any cost to you (again dying = bad = cost to you). You also can not "really" pick and choose where it goes off. And there is a 2 second delay that in some cases can totaly elminate damage. So there are at least 3 restrictions/limitations when its compared to another weapon that I can think of....

No. "Fair" would mean dropping it where it is. "Unfair" would be having it respawn somewhere else, perhaps even back in the guys base that you just killed, so he can bring it at you again, and again, and again....., which is what "random" would mean many times.

Well according to some the damage is so over the top that the person that killed the player carrying the vengence has no chance to survive the incoming blast so he will not live to pick it up anyways

In your example of a team using it to over power another team (good example), having the vengence relic stay at that point still leaves the door open for abuse. Say not all of the team that brought in the vengence was killed, then some one else on the same team can pick it up and spam the base/node/spawn point much easier if it was not replaced on the map then hidden. Or if the team sent players in one at a time, it would be a non stop wave of sucide attacks. Thats not good either. If we make it go to a truly random spot with a 60 second limit before it can be picked up, then its more likely to stop the wave after wave of attacks.


The point I am seeing is that not everyone is agreeing to how this should work. We all agree that its damage model could use some tweaking.
I do like the idea of maybe changing the effect. Save our current effect and use it to replace the deemer's effect. But maybe we can do something like Raiders of the Lost Ark Movie and how the gouls/ghost came out of the ark?

[Kaboodles]

I like the ghosts/ghouls idea, but I think it would be awesome if the ghosts/ghouls were flying melee monsters that attack enemies, can be killed, and vaporize after a while.

[Shadowstar]

No. "Fair" would mean dropping it where it is. "Unfair" would be having it respawn somewhere else, perhaps even back in the guys base that you just killed, so he can bring it at you again, and again, and again....., which is what "random" would mean many times.

That makes no sense at all. You're talking as if we are generating random numbers from two-digit fractals. It's not going to turn up in the same place if it spawns randomly, it WILL if it drops. Not knowing where it will appear means anyone could get it. That's the whole point of random. And for what it's worth, in most CTF games each base generally tends to be occupied by members of both teams, unless both teams are 100% defensive, which makes for a pretty crappy game. So, if the venge relic spawns in the enemy base, it may be a blessing in disguise if a member of your offense gets it.

I have been playing games on-line since QuakeWorld. And I have had many many games ruined by the Rare Llama. If we can do something to limit them, then we should as server admins are not always around.

Well I still don't see what this whole deal is with the tk, but IMO, its less abusable if it obeys the tk rules than if it doesn't, and I always believe in going with the lesser of two evils.

Well indirectly there is. If your using the Vengence, then your not using the other relics that could be helping you more.

Sorry, I don't see that as logical at all. That's like saying a drawback to the rocket launcher is that it's not a redeemer.

This is largely dependent on how we choose to spawn relics. In the current system, relics are plentiful enough that you usually have a choice between vengeance and any other relic. Given this, one could choose regeneration over vengeance and use it to great effect. If one were to choose Vengeance, then the effect would be much less useful. If we limit relic spawning by map size (as it should be), Flagg could have a valid point here.

[R.Flagg]

That makes no sense at all.

Well, you don't seem to 'getting' much of what I've said. So be it.

Not like you can just activate it with out any cost to you

Yes, yes you can. You fight and die like any other time, and yet you get this added "bonus" of a redeemer-ish exposion afterwards. You had to do nothing to make this happen. No cost or risk to you at all.

Anyway, we could and have debated this over and over, yet the original idea of the thread was so that others could chime in. I too kept ringing in though, so I'm just as guilty.

If anyone else would like to share their thoughts, feel free.

[jeditobe1]

Yes, yes you can. You fight and die like any other time, and yet you get this added "bonus" of a redeemer-ish exposion afterwards. You had to do nothing to make this happen. No cost or risk to you at all.

I would have to say your logic is wrong: You can also grab the regen relic, and fight and die like any other time, and you get an added bonus "with no cost or risk to you at all"

[R.Flagg]

Hehe. Nice try.

Yes, but the regen isn't going to give a redeemer-ish explosion which leaves your team untouched. Not exactly the same thing at all. And I have also said that our regen is too strong as well.

In other words, I'm still supporting the same argument, by saying that the regen is too much gained, with nothing lost. Except, as is pointed out in the quote below, if you use it and attack an enemy, you run this risk of giving it to them (because it drops where you die).

Oh, and BTW Shadow - others do "get it", even w/o me telling them. For example, when I gave our very 1st news post to BU announcing our relics, here's what one of the BU staff had to say

The problem with the relics mutator in UT was that there could be any number of them at any one time. Proper relics consist of only 1 per type on the battlefield at any one time so that they become resources for teams to fight over.

A fragged player drops the relic he/she is carrying and it then becomes an extra strategic decision: do you keep players holding relics all on defense to lessen the risk of losing one to the other team (and make your defense much tougher) or do you use some or all of them on offense and overwhelm their defense (but risk losing one or more).

That's how you do relics.

Indeed. That's how you do relics.

[Corvus|CL]

I remember that the relics in UT from the Digital Extreme bonus pack had sometimes also a disadvantage, like with strength relic you were not be able to pick up a UDamage, with Defense Relic you were not be able to pick up shield belt, etc.

So for balancing the relics a bit more, what about the following suggestion, every relic gets an advantage and a disadvantage:

Relic of Vengeance:
pro: Big explosion after you die, killing enemies in the blast radius
con: unable to use super weapons, own turrets self destruct when picking up the relic.

Relic of Regeneration:
pro: regenerates health below 100 hp
con: unable to pick up Keg O' Health, max health limited to 100 (or more?), losing any health above 100 when picking up the relic ..

Relic of Strength:
pro: increases fire rate and damage of the weapons
con: unable to pick up Double Damage

Relic of Shield:
pro: absorbs some of the taken damage
con: unable to pick up any armor/shield, losing all armor when picking up the relic

Relic of Speed:
pro: increased movement speed
con: unable to use jumpboots and gravbelt

Relic of Vampirism:
pro: damaging enemies will heal you
con: health slowly decreases, so without "vampirism" or health pickups you will die sooner or later...

Additional Relic:
Relic of Redemption:
pro: teleports you to a random pathnode at some distance when you are going to lose your last health point (can encounters the vengeance explosion).
con: after teleporting you spawn with 100 health but no respawn protection and you lose all your weapons except the startup weapons.

[Zachariah]

. . . erm , that sounds pretty crippling to the relic system :S . . .

[General_Sun]

And what if in the map there's nothing to pick up....

Like say... In duel?

My advice, just tweak some settings. I'm fine with vengence in none melee modes but I have i suggestion. Make a blast force that pushes you away from the center of the blast, then it gives you a boost in escaping it.

Regen, make it a little slower is all...

And the Redemption thing, that's way over powered in Melee, and come to think of it in none melee too. It means that you can never die!

[Corvus|CL]

. . . erm , that sounds pretty crippling to the relic system :S . .

Ever played UT with the DE Relics? As I said they had similiar restrictions and were still powerfull

For Duel you can remove certain relics, vengeance does not even make sense in duel...

And the Redemption thing, that's way over powered in Melee, and come to think of it in none melee too. It means that you can never die!

You can still die, because it works only once and after you teleported away you have no relic anymore...

Has never anyone played UT with the DE relics?

[R.Flagg]

Has never anyone played UT with the DE relics?

Of course. But they weren't perfect, and we should learn from them.

BTW - we do already have the 'can't get DA when carrying strength' in place.

I would go along with the 'can't get shield pickup when carrying shield relic' as well.