CCTF observation

lord_kungai · Post by **lord_kungai** » Mon May 16, 2005 5:33 pm

CCTF has one major issue: When the bots get the flag, they never return it immediately to the base...

UNLESS...

A player gives the 'return the flag' command. Then they run back to the base with the flag (all huddled together in one large and easily destroyable group

)

This is just something I noticed, and it might be wrong, but it might just solve the above problem in CCTF...

Post by **R.Flagg** » Tue May 17, 2005 4:22 am

In my bot matches in 3.6 CCTF, I can see many issues, but this hasn't been one of them. But there are a number of things which can affect your bot's performance. Such as the map(s) you're playing, the difficulty level, and even the version of Chaos you are using (any chance you're running 3.51?).

If you are in fact speaking of v3.6, then could you share the specific map, bot settings, and any other mod/muts you're running?

Thanks.

Oh, and if you meant "Get our flag back", I'm not sure that's actually a command for bots.

genman · Post by **genman** » Tue May 17, 2005 8:10 pm

I've seen the same problem in CCTF and CVCTF when the bot have the flag. I'm using version 3.6.

Post by **R.Flagg** » Tue May 17, 2005 10:26 pm

Again, some specifics would be helpful, or at least interesting.

I for example played a couple rounds last night on Confrontation and MistyGlen against Masterful bots, and they returned it lickety-split every time.

lord_kungai · Post by **lord_kungai** » Wed May 18, 2005 1:26 pm

R.Flagg,

I was playing CUT version 3.6

I tried it out with all official and CUT maps and all difficulty levels with each map, 5 flags a map (I had some spare time on my hands)

Muts: QuadJump, FastWeaponSwitching

Oh yeah, it was the "Get our flag back" command

Anyways, I noticed that when I used the above command, the bot holding our team flag (I tried playing as both both red and blue) immediately ran back to the flagstand whereas they went forward to the 'halfway line' of the map before returning to the base.

Post by **R.Flagg** » Wed May 18, 2005 1:48 pm

So... you are saying that on every official map, and on every bot difficulty setting, the bots Never return the flag for you?

Something odd going on then. Because I just don't see it. Just now I even lowered my bots a few levels and spec'ed a few more matches, and they're returning the flag every game for me. Maps this time around included maps like FaceClassic and GrassyKnoll, and still I did not see this issue (can't count some maps like SubMagma of course, cause there are VCTF AI issues not caused by Chaos).

I have seen this before though. On the notepad on my desk, under my 3.51 notes I have for note #8 "bots forget they have flag"..., but it's not something I'm seeing lately in 3.6, so I dunno yet what's up.

Are you sure those are the only mutators you're running? Not some kind of "admin" mut or something going on is there? Have you tried it with just Chaos? Are you mean to your bots?

lord_kungai · Post by **lord_kungai** » Wed May 18, 2005 6:33 pm

R.Flagg wrote:

So... you are saying that on every official map, and on every bot difficulty setting, the bots Never return the flag for you?

Not immediately. The bot with the flag runs out a bit (This is ver 3.6) THEN turns around and heads back to the base UNLESS I give the "Get our flag back" command. In that case, they run directly back to the base. Also, in some maps (VCTF - ChaosBastion for one) The enemy bots, upon getting the flagg, huddle together and just CAMP IN THEIR BASE CORRIDOR!!! THEY WAIT FOR A GRAV VORTEX TO COME THEIR WAY!!! (:lol:)

R.Flagg wrote: Something odd going on then. Because I just don't see it. Just now I even lowered my bots a few levels and spec'ed a few more matches, and they're returning the flag every game for me. Maps this time around included maps like FaceClassic and GrassyKnoll, and still I did not see this issue (can't count some maps like SubMagma of course, cause there are VCTF AI issues not caused by Chaos).

Hmmm... I've seen the enemy-flagcarrier-bot-orgy-thingy only in a few maps, especially the ones with long and winding corridors

R.Flagg wrote: I have seen this before though. On the notepad on my desk, under my 3.51 notes I have for note #8 "bots forget they have flag"..., but it's not something I'm seeing lately in 3.6, so I dunno yet what's up.

It is CUT 3.6 I'm using

R.Flagg wrote: Are you sure those are the only mutators you're running? Not some kind of "admin" mut or something going on is there?

This happens even if i dont use any muts

R.Flagg wrote: Have you tried it with just Chaos?

I have been playing CCTF. That does not come with normal UT

R.Flagg wrote: Are you mean to your bots?

Only the necris; Their faces look bleached...

And anyone who manages to get a frag off me...

Maybe the skaarj, if im bored...

Post by **R.Flagg** » Wed May 18, 2005 6:48 pm

lord_kungai wrote:Also, in some maps (VCTF - ChaosBastion for one) ...

UT2004 VCTF AI has many issues. These do not come from Chaos.

The only way to make bots work in UT2004 VCTF is to make 'drive-by' flag-bases (where you can pretty much drive right up to the flag), which doesn't usually make for good human play.

Please disregard any AI issues in maps such as these.

MassChAoS · Post by **MassChAoS** » Wed May 18, 2005 9:35 pm

What is your bot difficulty setting?

stephen_wq · Post by **stephen_wq** » Thu May 19, 2005 4:14 am

i was just trying out CCTF on face 3 and i forgot to change any settings and there were no muts, so i assume they would have been on novice, as it was rather easy, but they all huddled together, and got distracted by other things, like the botpath all of a sudden changed, maybe use one of those "see what bots are thinking" muts to find out what is happening here.
in VCTF-Slax, one of the bots(in our base, had our flag) ran away from the the flag jumped in a hellbender and drove over to the flag got out and returned it.

lord_kungai · Post by **lord_kungai** » Thu May 19, 2005 5:34 am

R.Flagg wrote:UT2004 VCTF AI has many issues. These do not come from Chaos.

The only way to make bots work in UT2004 VCTF is to make 'drive-by' flag-bases (where you can pretty much drive right up to the flag), which doesn't usually make for good human play.

Please disregard any AI issues in maps such as these.

Done, disregarded. However, similar problems occur in normal CTF matches too...

Question: Why did the bots forget they were holding the flag in CUT 3.51 in the first place

Post by **R.Flagg** » Thu May 19, 2005 6:48 am

Dunno exactly. I assume it was/is a side effect of the various efforts that were made to try and teach the bots to play our type of CTF. And of course in VCTF maps, they were already shaky.

So yeah, there are a number of AI issues in CCTF. Some of that as we've mentioned is just the way they were 'outta the box', and some of it is a result of adding in our return-the-flag rules.

I do for example, also see the bots all sorta 'crowding' a teammate who is returning their flag. And other things like how if they come upon both flags lying on the ground, they will go for theirs only, and ignore the other team's flag, even it's only lying a few feet away. And various other things.

lord_kungai · Post by **lord_kungai** » Thu May 19, 2005 7:30 am

Theory:

In normal CTF bots only need to touch their flag in order to return it, not carry it back to their base. Hence they:

1) All run towards their flag (each shouting "I've got the flag")
2) Run towards their flag first, then towards the enemy flag
3) Return their flag first (by touching it) then try to capture the enemy flag

However, in CCTF, they need to carry their flag back to the base in order to return it, so they:

1) All run towards their flag, even if it is being carried by one of their teammates (hence the crowding issue)
2) Run towards their flag first, then towards the enemy flag
3) Return their flag first (probably due to some sort of prioritisation) by carrying it back to their base then try to capture the enemy flag

As the "returning-the-flag" process is much longer in CCTF than in CTF, possible solutions to this issue are:

1) When a bot/player is returning the flag, the other bots take on the "protect-the-dude-who-is-capturing-the-flag" positions (I don't know very much about AI coding, but whenever I play, I see bots take up certain positions around maps when the flag carrier is heading to his base to capture the enemy flag. If the same code is implemented for the CCTF returning-the-flag process, it might stop the crowding problem)

2) If both the flags are in the field and a bot has one of them (by priority, his team's flag) the bots covering the flag carrier in the above said method could be made to attempt to pick up the enemy flag if it is nearby. In that case, there would be two flag carriers and both would need to be covered by their teammates...

3) Otherwise, if the enemy flag is close enough and there are no other players in the vicinity, the flag-returner itself could be made to attemt to grab the enemy flag and head back to the base.

Post by **R.Flagg** » Thu May 19, 2005 12:49 pm

Some good thoughts there. But keep in mind, much like other items (Vengeance Relic Spirits are a good example), CCTF remains something in sort of an early beta stage. So it's not that we don't see some of the same issues that you do, it's just a question of the work not being finished.

Things like CCTF and Veng. Spirits will need a lot more dev before you can give them a fair assesment.