Idea for a new relic (plus a 'Hi' post...)

Loki · Post by **Loki** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:57 pm

If you wanna get straight to the idea, skip down until you see the line/divider

Well, having known about this mod since about 1999 (I bought UT98 GOTY edition with your mod on it) as soon as I discovered it, I pretty much played with it on every game I've played. Seriously.

I was really pleased when you moved onto UT2k4, but I was slightly surpised, dissapointed and pleased with many of the things you did for CUT2, and finally got off my fat backside to actually post in your forums.

Pros:
C.U.T.T.E.R.: Weee! The ripper's back!
New ammos for old guns: the fire mines and Needles for the claw for example.
Proxies. I love those little buggers and their one-liners.
Ammo types. CUT was really cumbersome with all the different weapons (posion crossbow, explosive crossbow, yada yada yada)
Grenade launcher: Brill. I love lobbing a disruption grenade into the pack of bots following me when I've got the ball/flag. Ruins their day.

Cons:
I didn't really like it at first, but I'm getting used to, and quite liking, the changes to the crossbow from CUT. I miss the scope, but multi arrow fire is fun.
Cutter: Nothing Major, just the blades more *really* fast, or at least, seem to move alot faster than the ripper's did IIRC in UT98
Chaos Bike: It's a bugger to steer. (EDIT: apparently you've released a new version of CUT2 which as the bike 'fixed' so nevermind..)
The MUG. It's not so much the gun itself, more that whenever it's used my computer (which can handle a 23 bot onslaught/tdm game no problem) grinds to a halt when it's used. Not really your fault, I know. Just a pain.
Claw: Aww, I can't gouge lumps out of people with it anymore!

Proxies: I miss being able to just lob them, grenade style. Minor gripe.
Bastard Sword: Gotta admit, my favorite pastime in UT98 was getting this thing out and clobbering people with it. Third person makes it hell to hit a bot, especially if they've packing a flak cannon.

Sniper rifle/cutter gripe: When I'm playing onslaught, I often end up having to abandon my Goliath due to it taking too much damage from Cutter blades and the Chao Sniper rifle's standard bullets. Annoying, simply because IMO they should bounce off. But I think I'm right in assuming this is a game bug and there's nothing you can do about it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway, enough of this, onto the idea:
Assuming you missed out the Relic of Redemption from UT98 for a reason, I've had an idea for another relic, which I've tried (and failed) to do myself.

Relic of replenishment.
What this relic does is it 'regenerates' your ammo, from a % of the total.
So replenishes ,say, 10% of the weapons total ammo amount every second or whatnot

Post by **R.Flagg** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:12 am

Really good post. Gotta say I agree with a lot of what you said.

Esp the part about 3rd person melee in non-Duel game types. I agree that it just isn't workable.

Post by **Tim** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 5:23 pm

I also agree about the Chaos bike... (now i remember what i wanted to warn Jb about....). They should make it line in Clone Bandits or something, where moscowboy is mouse-steered.

jb · Post by jb » Thu Jul 07, 2005 5:47 pm

Tim wrote:I also agree about the Chaos bike... (now i remember what i wanted to warn Jb about....). They should make it line in Clone Bandits or something, where moscowboy is mouse-steered.

hehehe has been for some time in the development builds

jb · Post by jb » Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:54 pm

BTW HI

Post by **Tim** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 11:13 am

Cutter could have AWO... It could make blades to explode WITHOUT shrapnels, making a bit more damage.

PS: I saw the hoverboard, it's nice. Only a bit wierd when I'm standing facing down... I know it aint finished, that's why it doesn't replace the vehicle(lemme guess: manta)

jb · Post by jb » Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:31 pm

Tim wrote:PS: I saw the hoverboard, it's nice. Only a bit wierd when I'm standing facing down... I know it aint finished, that's why it doesn't replace the vehicle(lemme guess: manta)

Yeap the idea had little chance of ever working thanks to the way vehicles were design by epic. So we are pretty much giving up on the main idea...but have a back up plan

Post by **R.Flagg** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:27 pm

jb wrote:
Tim wrote:I also agree about the Chaos bike... (now i remember what i wanted to warn Jb about....). They should make it line in Clone Bandits or something, where moscowboy is mouse-steered.
hehehe has been for some time in the development builds

And it's an issue of contention for us.

Mouse steering a wheeled vehicle would work for us if we were modding Pariah or some such. But it does not fit or belong in UT2004.

And unless we can get the bots to play better on the bike in general, I'm going to suggest that the bike itself only be available via an ini option or something. It's not a good idea to include a feature by default that messes up botmatches.

jb · Post by jb » Sat Jul 09, 2005 5:07 pm

R.Flagg wrote:Mouse steering a wheeled vehicle would work for us if we were modding Pariah or some such. But it does not fit or belong in UT2004.

Thats your opinion and your are welcomed to it. Others happen to disagree as there are mods/vehciles out for UT2k4 that do offer mouse steering.

LoQtUS · Post by **LoQtUS** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 7:09 pm

To add to what has been said, It is currently an optional setting so there is really no reason to change it. If you dont like the mouse steering then simply turn it off in the settings.

Pretty simple huh?

Post by **R.Flagg** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 7:34 pm

LoQtUS wrote:Pretty simple huh?

Only if you fail to recognize the issues inherent in having too many GUI options in your game. If your logic were that 'simple' - than Chaos, even UT2004 itself, would have tons more of these so-called options.

The issue of how many, and what kind, of options to provide is not something that we alone have discussed. In the past I have even linked you to some pro game designers talking on the topic.

Even if we do leave the option there, it's current arrangement is less than desirable. It is a generic "mouse steer" option, which reads "turns on mouse steering for some Chaos vehicles". Obviously this could use some refinement.

And to the other comment, I hardly consider the fact that 'other mods' have done something or another with a feature relative to the discussion. If our goal was simply to copy other mods, than perhaps. But that has never been our goal.

LoQtUS · Post by **LoQtUS** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 8:00 pm

R.Flagg wrote: Only if you fail to recognize the issues inherent in having too many GUI options in your game. If your logic were that 'simple' - than Chaos, even UT2004 itself, would have tons more of these so-called options.

The issue of how many, and what kind, of options to provide is not something that we alone have discussed. In the past I have even linked you to some pro game designers talking on the topic.

Even if we do leave the option there, it's current arrangement is less than desirable. It is a generic "mouse steer" option, which reads "turns on mouse steering for some Chaos vehicles". Obviously this could use some refinement.

Even better, We can hide it in the INI file. That was it doesnt cause any problems with the GUI, and it takes care of your gripes.

R.Flagg wrote: And to the other comment, I hardly consider the fact that 'other mods' have done something or another with a feature relative to the discussion. If our goal was simply to copy other mods, than perhaps. But that has never been our goal.

Its relitive to the statements that you have made about it not fitting into UT. If it doesnt fit then why is it becomming common place?

Post by **Shadowstar** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 8:02 pm

I'm not so sure about any of it. I feel that if we can make it play well and improve the gameplay, any changes we have to do to accomodate that are acceptable. We shouldn't be afraid to experiment with different methods of doing that, so long as we come to a conclusion on it before the release. Along these lines, certain features that have not yet achieved that perfect state can be removed for a particular release and then continued afterward in closed development.

LoQtUS · Post by **LoQtUS** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 8:28 pm

Shadowstar wrote:I'm not so sure about any of it. I feel that if we can make it play well and improve the gameplay, any changes we have to do to accomodate that are acceptable. We shouldn't be afraid to experiment with different methods of doing that, so long as we come to a conclusion on it before the release. Along these lines, certain features that have not yet achieved that perfect state can be removed for a particular release and then continued afterward in closed development.

agreed totaly.
If its an issue of how the player controlls it, then it becomes a non issue when the option to change it back to key controlls is added.

Post by **R.Flagg** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:28 am

LoQtUS wrote:If it doesnt fit then why is it becomming common place?

I don't think anyone established that this is commonplace at all.

I just feel that my opinion here is perfectly in line with our stated goal (and no matter what other mod teams have done, my desire to see that goal thru has not changed).

Like I mentioned in IRC, we have always said that our goal is to "blend", and be as if from the game. And since only flying vehicles are mouse-steered in UT2004, then yes, IMO changing that for the bike is not working towards that goal as good as we could be.

I understand the gears are now coming out, and I think the logic here is exactly the same.